What Annoys You About Independent Schools?

[zanzibarmum]

Me? Independent schools who:

• tell applicants not to tutor their children when the entire prep school set up is precisely about cramming for common entrance exams;
• refuse to explain content of common entrance exam, again which discriminates against state school applicants;
• entrance exam papers which are clearly biased - Latymer's practice paper asks a question about the size of a hockey stick;
• poo poo league tables when their whole raison d'etre is to churn out As and A*;
• promote all the sport they do but in practice do very little for most children;
• who do not standardise entrance exam scores for age - selecting therefore the oldest not necessarily the brightest (cf churning out As and A*;.

Clearly, there are lots of good things about some independent schools but generally they have an easy life and probably coast on the back of the intelligence (innate or prepped) on their students.

This is part of the problem - for as long as people opt out, it remains Someone Else's Problem.

It beggars belief that people can think a school is "inadequate" and at the same time hold in their heads the contradictory idea that other people's kids, who don't live on dung or have two heads as far as they know, actually attend that alleged feral boot-camp for thugs. What do they think happens to those kids which is now supposedly not going to happen to theirs?

goingslowlyroundthebend, what would the alternative to the state system be?

Eh? How can you fundamentally disagree with the state system? Do you mean you think it isn't good enough, or that there shouldn't be one?

Unquiet Dad, I don't think that the schools are inadequate because the children who attend them make them so; the fault is not with the children, and I do believe every child has a right to a good education.

But I don't believe that increasing the number of middle class children in a school is going to make a school better. I don't believe that parents have any power to make things better by getting involved at their local school, as schools don't really want parents to be involved.

I also don't believe that we can influence the government because different parents want entirely different things from state schools; there isn't enough cohesion between parents to make a change.

I am waiting for 11plus results, but if my son has failed he will go to the local comp. I don't like the fact that spelling and punctuation mistakes are not routinely corrected, but many other parents don't want the mistakes corrected because they don't want their children's self esteem damaged. Even if we all agreed, the school would still ignore us, because they don't want parents interfering with the teacher's professional opinion. This is one small example of how I do not believe I can change the system.

UQD, I think I understand why you feel that a independent school parents (me) look down upon state school parents (you)

Spurning the state school as not being good enough for my children - which is effectively and truthfully what I have done - is not the same thing as saying that I think the state school in question is good enough for your children.

It's not a statement that I think my children are better than yours. It's a statement about one particular state school which I think could do with being closed.

Don't take it personally

Agreed, but if it was closed then where would everyone go? (The kids of the parents who didn't have any choice, I mean?)

The thing is, if independent schools closed down, those who could afford their fees would simply move to areas with the best schools, thereby squeezing out the children of those less well-off parents who previously would have benefitted from an excellent education.
This is why house prices in catchment areas of excellent schools are so high.
Children of low-income families will never get as good a deal as those from well-off families until the government offer an excellent standard of education at every school, regardless of catchment intake.
This is a very sad situation- no child chooses their parents.

OK then, what would happen if we privatised all schools, gave everyone an education voucher, and let the parents run them? Always wondered this.

Hah- let parents run them? Are you kidding- it would mean the collapse of the education system in the case of most schools- speaking as a governor!

Do you really think that? Only in Scandinavia they seem to have successful semi-private schools that are state subsidised and have extremely low fees, with a lot of local/parent involvement. That's what made me wonder.

Orm, I believe in a state system but I believe it should fit each child, not this one size fits all approach. I think there should be lots of different types of schools all with huge investment, but that is a utopian dream.
I cannot stand education by catchment area, lying to get your place etc but parents do as they feel they must ? nothing can be done unless we have a sizemic shift in the system.
Until then we have this huge divide which will fail some, deliver for others and constantly cause spats on Mumsnet!

I also wonder if schools have got too big. Children are really slipping though the net quite frequently.

boffinmum - I'm not convinced by vouchers. I have yet to see an argument which convinces me it would work. Same goes for parental control, sadly!

I think am with goingslowlyroundthebend here - in wanting a good state system, with a lot of diversity in it. In other words a state system for all - just not necessarily this state system.

That's the trap a lot of people fall into - they think that if you want state education you must automatically want it as it is now, with no refinements or improvements.

It's interesting that there are so many spats about it on here. That reflects the social demographic more than anything else. The national average is about 93% in state and 7% in private. On here, my anecdotal evidence suggests a more 50-50 split.

ROFL at the 'you think your kids are so special' arguments.
When I was growing up on a sink estate my Mum worked like a dog in the shittiest of jobs to pay for me to go to Brownies and have music lessons and all the other kids would say 'what makes you so special?'
The other Mums called her a snob and said that she saw herself and me as a cut above.
UQD you remind me of those people - trying to put down, mock and bully.
It was mean spirited then and remains so now.

I don't think I'm being mean-spirited at all. We don't have a lot of money (compared with some) and we work hard for the children to have those things too.

UQD - I shouldn't get into this argument, but...

I haven't yet come across a state school that I would consider to be good enough for my children. However, that doesn't mean I consider my children superior to yours or anyone else's. It's just that they are mine, and as such will get the best education I can possibly afford for them.

Leaving aside the undeniable point that not everyone can afford private schools, those of us who can afford them (which may include you, UQD, for all I know) have to decide for ourselves whether we are happy to send our children to the state options. If we are, fine. If not, fine too. Those of us who can afford to choose make their choice. It doesn't reflect on anyone else's choices or children.

Obviously it would be nice if all state schools were so good that nobody ever thought about private schools. However, the fact is that some people can afford to choose and others can't. That's just a fact of life. There are lots of other things I'd like to have, but I can't have them because I can't afford them (like a house in S11, as mentioned elsewhere!) That's just the way life is. I don't feel that S11 people are casting aspersions on S8 people, for instance, by being able to choose to live where they live. It's the same with schools. Parents decide what they can and can't afford, and what they consider to be best for their own children. It really isn't aimed at anyone else!

I also think its a pity that in the private and state sector there is a tendancy to bigger schools. In the private sector small prep schools are struggling as people seem to be going more for the larger schools with better facilities.

In the state sector the norm appears to be for large comps with 250 in a year group. I think it would be better if comps had 1000 or fewer children in total. This would make them small enough for there to be more of a sense of community.

Yes happywomble. Our is just under 700. One of the things that I liked about it in the first place. And the new school buildings are going to accomodate 700 so it will stay small thankfully. The HT knows all the yr 7s name by Christmas.

It is very difficult to make any meaningful comparisons about "choices", because education is such a hot topic and there's really nothing comparable where there is such a public difference between a bog-standard (allegedly) state option and a higher-grade (allegedly) option that you have to pay for. There are no state cornflakes and private cornflakes, or state cars and private cars.

(You could try to make a case for the NHS or housing, but it's still not exactly the same. With health, some people use a mixture, for example, only going private for some operations and often not telling anyone about it. With housing, the majority of people are homeowners or aspire to be, which rather makes it a non-argument.)

"Choice" has become such a debased word in education over the last 15 years, and it always incenses me to see money attached to it in this way.

Yes, funny you should say that, litchick, I had a scholarship to boarding school and my parents worked their butts off to top it up with the necessary token contribution (there are very few completely full scholarships in existence, even today). It meant absolutely huge sacrifices.

I used to be bullied back home by the other kids, who said things like 'You think you're so great, don't you?', exclude me from all the activities on the estate, and things like that. The same families used to send their children over to trample on my parents' front garden and ruin the flowers.

Great hey? But so many of them are divorced/unemployed/miserable now I think karma gave them their comeuppance.

I wish we had a general "What annoys you about your children's school?" thread. The very fact that there are two - one for state, one for private (or "independent") is divisive in itself.

Well it wasn't a generous spirit to describe people like me as thinking I am a 'cut above the rest of humanity,' was it?
Nor would it be 'quite funny' if any child had to leave a school they loved in any circumstances, really.
However you have got it SO wrong.
I absolutely do not believe my kids are any better than anyone elses, it just so happens that I can afford to pay for what I want whne it comes to their schooling ( which by the way is not a hot house, nor a socially engineered, boater wearing castle).
But by the same token I don't believe my children's feet are any more precious than anyone else's but I can afford good shoes so I buy them. Ditto food, a house etc etc.
Why does that bring out such a mocking, bullying tone in those that can't afford it?

I've had this discussion lots of times with friends in RL.
To generalise massively - the way it tends to go is

• those who went to state schools tend to think that it was good enough for them, so it will be good enough for their kids, and should be good enough for everyone else's. Some get militant about taking kids out of the comprehensive system, some don't.
• those who went to private schools tend to think that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them and that if there wasn't a good state option near them then they'd go for it
• some from each group would move house to be near a good state school.

Personally, I think that moving house to be near a good state school is (from the point of view of society) much worse than opting for a private education. By moving for this reason the house prices in the area go up, squeezing out the children of less-wealthy parents who would otherwise have had a place at a decent school. In contrast, going private doesn't take a state place anyone else could have used.

boffin - that was my experience. And it is one of the things that has made me averse to private education TBH.

Again, I hate to keep hauling it back to this, but there is no mileage in comparison with commercial consumer items.(Litchick's shoe/food/house analogy.) Education isn't about that.

lucasnorth - you may be right about a lot of people, but I think there is far more overlap than you imply there. I know people who hated their "comp" and swear their kids will never go to one, and I have one RL friend who won a scholarship to private school and has no intention of sending his kids to one because he thinks they are awful.