Do quieter children just get submerged at school as they get older? Dd (aged 10) struggling

[TsarChasm]

(Moved this to 'Education' now.)

Dd (10) in yr5 is a quietish little girl. She's v good at arty subjects, compositions etc. She enjoys smaller groups, is quite sporty but not overly competitive. She's sweet, gentle and funny; a bit dreamy at times with a fantastic imagination.

She is confident in her own quieter way, but does not shine out in big loud groups. Not shy as such, more reserved. I was the same, so maybe she is like me.

At infant school there seemed to be time for her character, and she felt valued for her qualities. But as she gets older I think she feels submerged by school and seems to be quite at odds with it.

The children her age now all seem to be louder, more gregarious and jostling to be in poll position. I guess it's to be expected as hormones start to kick in.

Her friends seem louder, shouty and very bossy with one another. It's all high drama and emotion. Episodes of storming off, tears and not talking. In one case a friend has discovered boys in a big way; another has become terribly overbearing. All typical stuff I guess. Sometimes she is told to go away, other times they deign to play with her. This is hurtful to her and she is unsure how to handle it.

She seems to find all this well...too much. I try to tell her how to stand up to it. To grow a little shell, to stand her ground. She seems to have to almost steel herself to go in to school these days. I don't think she is being bullied, but she certainly seems lost in it all and sometimes sad and worn out by the time she comes home. As if she has to try and be someone else all day to get through it.

To cap it all the teachers have decided to have her year put on some sort of production. Everyone must have a speaking part. This is her idea of hell. They were all made to 'audition' yesterday almost Xfactor style . It sounded ghastly for her. I remember all too well myself this kind of misery at school.

Why is loud and brash so valued I wonder? Why is it a good thing to try and aspire to it even it you aren't wired up that way? Is that the only way to succeed or survive in a big group?

It's ok if you enjoy it or are good at it, but she isn't and therefore I worry she is starting to feel she isn't good at school any more. There are other ways to be confident, but it often seems this is the only expected way to assert yourself at school.

She started to go under the teachers' 'radar' as it were, during yr4 I think. The teacher she had last year was nice enough though. The one she has now seems to be looking for 'loud and confident' and is the first one she has had that I can't say I have especially warmed to.

In some ways I realise this is a welcome to the real world for her. But she has a lot of good qualities to offer both her friends and academically which are being trampled over because she isn't the type of person who will push herself to the front and shout about it. I wish I could make her feel a bit happier and able to cope with all this

Anyone?

Hi

I couldn't find this thread in the education section so I am answering it here.

My son is an introvert and is in year 6; I do not think loud and brash is valued by everyone. I think that extroverts and introverts can often find it hard to understand each other. Within the classroom, extrovert teachers tend to understand and relate better to extrovert children, so it depends on who is teaching your child in any particular year, and most teachers do make an effort with all personality types.

I don't think loud and brash are more valued, but it sounds like your daughter is in a situation where that has happened, but many people in the future are going to value her lovely qualities! Some children do grow up faster than others, and it is a shame when your child is still trying to enjoy childhood and her friends turn into mini adults.

I am not sure this is helpful, but I do sympathise and I believe that it isn't all doom and gloom for the future. I think someone who is imaginative and quiet like your dd has resilience to entertain herself that the louder children who need a crowd haven't got. But your dd still needs good friends and I hope things work out!

This sounds very, very tough on your daughter.

My impulse is to suggest pretty drastic solutions, but I don't have a child this age, and so don't really feel qualified.

What do you think would have helped you, at this age, if you had confided in your parents?

Re the school production, would she enjoy doing something backstage? Maybe you and she could make an appointment and talk to the teacher together about this. I think there's a real difference between skills a child should practise (speaking up for herself, negotiation, and perhaps occasional public speaking, at least to a small group) from skills that are more a matter of choice (like performing).

(Sorry meant moved this to 'Primary Education')

Thank you for your reply Milly. You are spot on to say that she is 'still trying to enjoy childhood and her friends turn into mini adults.' That really sums up a lot for her.

Also yes, the last teacher and this have been quite extrovert team types. I hope she finds one more attuned to her personality at some stage so she feels a bit less of an outsider.

Tsar, you could almost be describing my DD - also 10. I do think the teacher makes a huge difference.

DD had these problems last year when they had a youn female teacher and all the girls adored her and wanted to be her fave. DD struggled to find a niche and consequently got left out of a lot of things. Thing is, she has lots of freinds and does well at school but just hates fuss/limelight.

Now she is in Yr 5 and has a young male teacher. He seems much better at including everyone and playing to their strengths/weaknesses. For example, he knows my DD would rather cut her own arm off than have to perform in any way, so when they did a class assembly, he put her in charge of organising props and asked her to help design some costumes (he remembered that she had said she wanted to be a designer!)

I think it helped that, when we met him at the start of the school year, I mentioned these issues so he was aware. But he does seem to be very good at knowing what they are all like and helping them in any way he can. I'm sure this is not an easy thing for a teacher to do with a large class and the limited time they have but he just seems to be especially good at it.

Sorry - I waffled on a bit - he is slightly gorgeous and the fact that he has done wonders with DD since September has made me his new biggest fan!!!!

Thanks for replies.

I wondered about that too Choosyfloosy re helping backstage. I don't think it's a goer though; they are adamant they're all in it apparantly.

I had to speak to her teacher on another issue last term. God, it sounds like I trot up about eveything. I don't. Generally I keep a distance from school because I like to encourage dc to tackle issues themselves where possible.

The teacher was somewhat dismissive though and doesn't seem to welcome much of a dialogue with parents tbh. I don't want her to earmark dd as a 'problem' to manage in class when dd just wants to blend in I think.

Again yes MrsH you are right, the teacher will make all the difference. It's a shame. Dd likes to please and do well, but she's at odds with this. Like your dd given a job like that she'd fire up on all cylinders and produce excellent work.

I remember well myself from school though that those that crave the spotlight often just do not understand why someone else would hate it.

My sister sounds like a grown up version of your dd. She was exactly the same as your dd.

She got into a bit of trouble in secondary school and was eventually caught stealing after she fell in with the wrong crowd. But after that she really knuckled down to her studies and ended up getting a second in an art degree. She is now waiting untill her baby is one year old before she will finish her PGCE after which she wants to teach in a special needs school.

She did really in school.

She was bullied a bit by two particular girls, but fortunately she had an older sister so that didn't get too out of hand. One of the bullies is now a heroin addict and the other is raising five children on benefits. I think my sister feels a bit more confident about it all now.

Does the class have a teaching assistant who is more on her wavelength? Could dd be encouraged to get to know the assistant a bit more?

OK I'm going to come out with my drastic solutions. I wonder if it is time to think seriously about home educating, or at least to look at other schools? I feel so much for your dd. I'm perhaps more of a performer than her, but feeling out of synch with your yeargroup is just awful - this happened to my sister. My yeargroup just happened to be a lot gentler, and I was happy in it.

This forced performing is horrific frankly, though your dd sounds like a trouper who will find a way to get something out of it - hope so anyway.

Just to think ahead a bit, is she going to end up at secondary school with these girls? It might be worth moving schools now so that she has a nice group of friends to transfer to secondary with. On the other hand, if the primary group are going to all go their separate ways at secondary school anyway, it might be worth sticking it out until the end of year 6. It depends how unhappy she is; could be a long time to wait.

I think weird group dynamics often develop. Maybe some of the other girls in her class are actually unhappy with the mini adult trend, and are just being brash to fit in. Is is possible to talk in a very discreet way to other mum's and she how their daughters are enjoying or not enjoying school?

My quiet 8yo (yr 4) has come to the front a bit more in the last year (in yr3 she didn't speak to her teacher at all for the first half term, and recently she was the only one in the class NOT to have a speaking part in the class assembly. She's also the only one in the drama club to mime rather than talk in the recent play.

But she is really happy at school, she gets on well with her current teacher, and has some good friends, to me she seems to be fitting in a lot better than a couple of years ago. So I don't think it's inevitable that quiet children fade under the radar as they get older, some go the other way.

I do tell her that being quiet and not speaking up in class isn't a problem, it's a personality trait. She visibly brightened when talking to her teenage cousins lately, who all are very quiet and shy at school, but dd1 thinks they are wonderful. We all agreed that being quiet and shy isn't a flaw. I think that sort of reinforcement is helping her.

Well this is quite a recent development for her. I'd say it's only the last year, well mainly since Sept when she started in year5, that she's been finding things a bit much.

Until then she very much enjoyed school. Things ticked along at a gentler pace and she liked that.

The children are the ones she's gone through infants with and they will mainly be the ones she will go into secondary school alongside.

She knows and likes them and yet, and yet..well, they are changing and growing up, I suppose. All perfectly natural. I don't think anything that's happened wouldn't probably happen at any other school tbh.

They are nice children but like all 9/10 yr olds+ they are pushing the boundaries now and becoming noisier and less sweet and compliant. Maybe some are ahead of her in terms of that particular eagerness for maturity. She has said a few times that she likes things as they are and is in no hurry to grow up.

I've had a few chats with her along these lines ie Nothing to worry about, we'll always be here for her, everyone is different and it's ok to stand up for yourself etc. Also that she needs to change maybe how she views things and not be too bothered by it all. I almost want her to be a bit more pushy to protect herself. I love her sensitivity but at this point in her life it's leaving her very raw at times.

I will mention it at the upcoming parents evening, I think. She used to get on very well with a teacher (sadly now left but reappears as a supply teacher sometimes) who was much much more like dd. She popped up the week before Christmas and dd positively bloomed again. That alone should show her that not all teachers deliver or expect the same.

I don't want to remove her. She is fairly sociable and enjoys things when they aren't being too ott at school. It's the knocks and bumps that hurt her because they don't always remember to be so kind as they used to. I guess she needs to get through it and will learn a lot by doing so. I think she will, because she knows she has to.