Reception child having a hard time in state primary - stick it out or move to private?

[Maxiebaby]

Our 4.5 year old daughter started in the reception class of a local state primary with an excellent reputation in September. We only got in unexpectedly on appeal and then had a hard job deciding between this and a selective private school she got into, finally choosing this one for reasons such as local friends, finances etc. Now I am wondering if we've made a dreadful mistake...

After a good start, things have not been going well since half term.
I would welcome other's views/experiences on whether such things tend to settle down, or whether the experience will have a lasting negative impact on my daughter and we should move her. She is bright, outgoing, keen, independent and feisty and yes can be a bit of a handful at times. We are now seeing recurrent incidents such as saying 'no' to teacher or chalking on the inside of a wendy house (along with others I might add, and more often than not not witnessed by the teacher herself and challenged by my daugher), for which she is being punished using naughty steps/corners etc. I dont see any sign of positive reinforcement of good behaviour/star charts etc. The teacher has been there for years, is very set in her ways and Ive been told (by others who've been through similar) Im not going to be able to change that. Whilst I support the teacher in trying to control this behaviour (and we try to reinforce the message at home) I dont think the approach is working, and feel the school is over strict and traditional and may not suit my daughter (or even me!). My daughter seems fairly happy but I am concerned she is being labelled and the effect this will have on her, on how others (teachers and peers) see her, and eventually on her progress.

Is a private school with smaller classes and a more individual approach likely to be better suited to a child this this (a private school I spoke to says the teacher may not be engaging her, so she plays up), or should we do what everyone else has done and stick it out or challenge the school's approach?

I think you should try to work with the school for a while before considering moving her. Have you had any proper meetings with the teacher, or just brief words with her at the start/end of the day.

Try to find out from the teacher what she feels the problem is.

Tell her that your daughter responds well to positive reinforcements and see if she will consider a star chart for her.

I think if you are worried that the school is overly strict and traditional, then sending her to private school is not the solution as it will be the same if not worse.

There isn't an easy answer.

What is the Head like? Ultimately you may just as easily come across an individual teacher that you don't like in any school regardless of sector.

Why did you like the school? If it is because of its strong discipline then you're getting what you wanted in one sense.

Out of what you have described the fact that your child is saying "no" to the teacher is probably the one that concerns me. Is she like that in any other context? Does this seem likely to you to have happened, or was it something that shocked you?

I would be sceptical of the "she isn't engaged so she is playing up" line. Are you confident that a good private school is still an option at this stage?

Are you aware of whether the school uses positive behavious management elsewhere?

My daughter is now in Year 1, but we had the same problem in reception, her good behaviour was not being rewarded, like your daughter she is very independent, bright and outgoing and it seemed was forever being told off. Now that she is in Year 1, she has settled in really well and is finding the structure, much more easier to cope with than when she was in reception.

Believe me (I have a dc in private school) if your dd behaves like this in an independent school, not only will the teachers come down harder, but god help you if another parent in her class gets whiff of it. They tend to be more competitive and less tolerant of anyone who might distract or sway their little angels . Obviously, I am generalising massively ... but in my experience, the private sector are tougher on disruptive or 'badly' behaved children.

I can see your point, however, that she is in a large class and could possibly get 'lost' in 30 odd kids and you are correct that in the private sector class sizes do allow for children to be more 'visible' - if you get what I mean?! Remember, these are early days and not only is your dd still settling in, you are too.

The grass always looks greener, so my advise would be have a proper chat to the teacher and ask them how are WE going to help her? The WE always goes down well and puts the ball in both your hands.

Good luck !

"(a private school I spoke to says the teacher may not be engaging her, so she plays up)" - or she needs a bit more of the over strict and traditional!

I am a bit of a Victorian parent , but I would be mortified if my reception child (and he is no angel) was being defiant toward the teacher, defacing the wendy house etc...and would be discussing it with him at home too, and enforcing further penalties of my own

In fact, ds did drop his pants for a wee in the school playground - and when the teacher informed me, I reinforced it quite forcibly when we got home (removal of tv for the evening etc)

And giving them a good telling off in no way precludes praising and reinforcing the good. Both approaches can be used together

Why would private be better?

Blimey, when a child in my dc's (private) school did that (wee in the playground), the head asked that he was assessed by an Ed.Psych !! OTT or wot ?!

Well yes, it does seem a trifle OTT! How old was the child? (Mine is 4)

I don't think a strict teacher is necessarily a problem - children in school do need to obey the rules, and they can't simply do as they wish. Is it just that your daughter is not used to adults insisting that she does things? You say that you try to reinforce the message at home, but do you really agree with it? She may be picking up the fact that you and the school are not on the same wavelength and not be clear that her behaviour is unacceptable.

I'm not clear how switching to an independent school would help the situation - they may be saying at the moment that it must be that the teacher is not "engaging" your daughter, but how would they react if she was at their school and behaved the same way? I don't see any guarantee that their teachers would be any better at engaging her interest, and as others have said they will be much less sympathetci to a child causing disruption.

If you genuinely don't want her to have to do what she's told by the teacher, or to be punished for her behaviour, then I think you would have to look for some "alternative" school, or else home eductae in an autonomous way, where this would not be an issue.

There was a weeing incident in my ds's old school as well, but I think a simple telling-off was all that was done (plus the fact that all the other kids were taking the mick).

I did see one of dd2's reception classmates quietly taking a leak in a corner of the playground the other day -- he was weeing through the fence, which I guess made him think it was okay.

LilyMay the child was 5. My dc wees in the garden during the summer 'cause he can't be arsed to come into the house (he knows we don't like it and it's wrong ) He wouldn;t dare do it at school though .... funny that.

Go with your gut instinct - you know your daughter. No reinforcement sounds crap to me - I wouldn't be happy about it.

Mine wees in the forest in an 'emergency' when we are on dog walks and there are no public loos, re...."He wouldn;t dare do it at school though" ...lol, neither would mine ...now

Sorry OP, that was completely OT.

From your OP it's not clear whether 'bright...independent and feisty' is a euphemism for 'pain in the neck'. My dd2 can be all of those things, and there have been one or two incidents, but the school is dealing with them well. OTOH, saying 'no' to the teacher and chalking on the wendy house are pretty high up the bad behaviour scale in most reception classrooms, simply because the teacher can only teach if most children are doing what they are told most of the time. Outright defiance and deliberate naughtiness are very time-consuming and disruptive for the teacher.

Agree with others that bad behaviour is likely to be even less acceptable in a private school than in a state school, partly cos that's what people are paying for, and partly because the range of behaviours the school routinely encounter is likely to be narrower. It is possible in principle for a child to act up because she is bored, but I think this probably isn't a first-choice assumption for a reception child. I'd be making an appointment to go in and have a nice calm chat with the teacher to work out some behaviour strategies to use at home and at school.

Also worth pointing out that by the beginning of December even much older dc can be exhausted it's a very long term, especially for younger dc. I definitely wouldn't make any rash decisions atm talk to the teacher and see how it goes next term.

So the private school you spoke to about this suggested the state school teacher wasn't 'engaging her' enough. Wonder why they said that ?

I would wait and see. It's still early days.

Mmm, what a wide range of opinions. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to share them.

We ARE reinforcing the school's message, talking seriously to our daughter about the incidents and introducing additional sanctions at home (like not playing with favourite toys/doing activities). But, having been told by other teacher friends/family that these incidents are quite normal and not very serious, it may be true that our daughter is getting mixed messages, so we will tighten up on that.

Personally I have been mortified by her behaviour, so I dont think its true that we dont want any discpline, and would be happy with that approach if it worked. Sadly so far I see no sign of it either with her or with other kids that have been through similar. I would just prefer a more balanced approach that makes some mention of, and praises, the positive aspects and behaviours.
When my daughter has a good day, I have to push the teacher to admit as much, yet she is only too keen to report any incident, serious or trivial!

In terms of speaking to the teacher, yes I have had 2 half-hour meetings, but these have been impromptu rather than general and strategic. I too feel the latter is necessary but have been dissuaded by other mums saying that is not the way this particular teacher does things, and Im not going to be able to change things/her. Having said which, I have nothign to lose by trying, and agree we have to do this before seriously considering a change of schools.
Agree a concerted approach between school and us as parents sounds best. Thanks to many of you for encouraging me in that.

No, the teacher does not know what is causing the recent bad behaviour and looked to us to answer that. We initially thought extreme tiredness from starting school, and brought bedtime forward/reduced activities. This only worked for a while however. The teacher does not understand where the keen, helpful well behaved little girl she saw before half term went!

Ayeddshao3 - thanks for the reassuring reflections on your own experience. Hope it is just a question of time for us too.

As for private schools, my feeling was that smaller classes meant less opportunity for kids to fool around, and also a more individualised approach, so that teaching and discipline were more tailored to the child. The teacher herself doesnt seem to have witnessed any of these incidents (they ahve been reported to her by assistants or other kids and my daughter does not often seem to agree with the accounts) so it seems she is thinly stretched. But I take the point about other parents being up in arms about bad behaviour when paying fees. Surely it would depend on the type of private school too - I wasn't thinking of the high-pressure academic kind.

"The teacher herself doesnt seem to have witnessed any of these incidents (they ahve been reported to her by assistants or other kids..."

Have you stressed this point with the teacher? Have you asked her to compare her own observations of your daughter with those of others? I have to say that whilst there are many competent TA's, I've met quite a few who will recount absolute trivia to me about pupils, for shock effect, and expect me to immediately act.

My ds is at a non-selective private school. He went from being described as enthusiastic and helpful (nursery teacher) to stubborn and uncooperative (school). What were seen as positive characteristics - independent-minded and perserverance - were viewed as negative. It has taken all of this term to change that opinion (my ds is still the same). I am happy with the school but my overriding reason for choosing it was to do with the extended day care they offered. The class sizes mean he gets individual attention but then so does my friend's child in a classroom of 30 with a teacher and two TAs.

I agree that bad behaviour is less tolerated and I think that is down to the head being strict but fair (all the children adore her).

If you dd is happy I would be reluctant to change unless you can't resolve your concerns. Private doesn't mean better imo.

MollieO - Yes I take your point about private not necessarily being any better or different. To a large extent it must depend more on the individual school, headteacher and ethos, whether state of private.
Also agree with you that our daughter's happiness is the key thing, and if she doesnt seem affected we should probably leave her where she is. On this point Im not entirely sure yet. Most of the time she is happy and strangely enough she adores the teacher (who is lovely in many ways). But she has had some miserable bad days when she's told DH school was 'horrible', and at one stage she started wetting herself which concerned me a lot. If it affects her that much then its a different matter altogether.

CritterJitter - No I havent yet raised this concern about the incidents always being reported second hand, and the lack of clarity therefore about what has actually happened. I find this frustrating and hard to know whether to believe my daughter or the teacher. Next time something like this happens I think I will be a bit more pushy and ensure they are absolutely sure of their facts before we take any action. She has been punished for things she still swears she didnt do, to the extent that we have actually had to replace things she was accused of damaging. If she is telling the truth (which I cant gauge), then this is particularly unjust and tough on her.

At my sons school they dont tell parents about small matters of naughtyness for which they have to sit on the 'red chair' or get sent out of the class - even things like spitting wont get a mention. They take a view that if they have disciplined in school then it doesnt need to be done again at home.

They will talk about things at the parents evenings though in terms of x needs to be quieter on the mat or whatever.

i agree that a private school will probably be worse in terms of expectation.

Could you reinforce the good behaviour yourself so when she comes home with a star (if they do this) then put it on the chart at home and a certain number makes a treat?

btw my son also goes through periods of extreme boundary pushing - at home and at school sigh.

I would be surprised if they asked you to pay for something broken if they weren't as sure as humanly possible who did the breaking, to be honest.

But remeber that your dd could be telling the truth as she sees it - 4 year olds have a somewhat "baroque' view of the world sometimes!

Maxiebaby
I think that you will know your daughter best. You'll have the best feel for whether or not she is telling the truth. Trust your instincts. Talk to the teacher, talk to the TAs etc. And make it clear that you will question 2nd hand accounts. But keep faith in your daughter, because mistakes can and do happen in schools.