My son is seriously unhappy at school. Should I pull him out?

[Grumblestiltskin]

My son is four. Five in April. He loved the idea of school and loved it when he first started for the first week. Since then he has cried every morning and gets extremely worked up. The teachers, my partner and I have tried every trick in the book but yet he?s always upset.
It?s a state school, which he had to go to because we didn't get into any of the faith schools of our choice. Without being too rude here, 45% of the parents are quite frankly; chavs and 50% of the parents are foreign. I wouldn't have a problem with this except there is quite obviously a divide in cultures. My son is a very loving and gentle boy whereas most of the children are extremely rude and rough. There is a boy in his class who has seriously behavior problems. Every day I hear my ds?s teacher complaining to his mother how he has bitten, kicked and punched. This boy has violet tantrums every morning.
My son told me how this "problem" boy punched a little girl in the eye. I saw her on Friday and she has a round plaster over her eye. My ds has already been hit by another child and I?m dreading the fact that my son might come home with a lack eye or worse.

Another problem is my son is a very social and has made lots of friends but he is so eager to go and play that he barely touches any of his lunch and I?m lucky if he eats half a sandwich. He even has over looked my bribes of his favourite food and chocolate.

On the day that he does PE he always comes out of school with his shoes on the wrong feet and his socks on the wrong way round.

His coat is never done up, even in this freezing cold weather, actually most of the children in the playground were not wearing coats this week.

I don't want him to miss out from school but I loathe this school so much. Is this what primary schools are like these days. Can I expect a better standard if I changed schools.

Should I pull him out now and wait until the council finds him another place.

Your thoughts would be very much appreciated

An unbuttoned coat won't kill him. Teach him to put on his shoes properly. You have to take responsibility for his ability to dress himself, provided he does not have special needs.

dd comes out dishevelled after pe. some days no lunch eaten as she didnt have time. has been kicked punched twice in the face.there are still kids in her class who cry everyday but parent helpers have all reported back they stop and dont continue as soon as mother is gone. dd school is very highly regarded in our area. couple of chavs and 30% none british, mostly white middle class. the 2 worst behaved in her class are from very respectable families who are distraught to hear how their sons are behaving.

i think its all part and parcel of reception class. i personally wouldnt pull, better the devil you know. give him till after xmas.

Thank you all for your replies.

We?re very careful to be extremely positive about the school which is why we are so surprised that he now hates it. Not snobbish at all but I have a preference for nice children and nice parents. Not children who attack other children. Its not the children I dislike but the parents who think its acceptable to allow their children to bully and attack others.
My ds is able to dress himself at home but like all four years old needs a little encouragement. 30 children are obviously hard to look after but this school seems to have a lot of behaviour problems so I think my son understandably gets overlooked.

We are on the waiting list for several schools but all the waiting lists are very long and we can?t get him into any other school in our area.
I?ve spoken to the council and they said that they can?t find another school for him until he?s legally meant to be in school.

bigTillyMint ? I?m unhappy that my sons unhappy. He cries every day and begs to not go to school. He tells me that he loves me and seems certain that I don?t love him. He loves playing with other children but just tells me he hates school.

MeMySonAndI I don?t have a problem with foreigners as my Mother is one herself. However, they don?t want to mix with anyone that?s English and a lot of parents are working class (I am as well) but they seem like their glad to see the back of their children aand stand in groups saying how much of a pain their children are. I take my neigbours son to school and none of the parents are like this. They all seem like a pretty normal bunch.

I?m friends with two other mothers and their children are lovely. They said that they are having the same problem with their boys but my son seems to be the only one that?s so upset.

Also strongly think that all little children should be wearing coats whether they feel cold or not. It?s freezing out there.

Thank you everyone for your comments. Have decided to ask if ds can go part time again and will access situation again. If it doesn?t get better my partner and I are going to home educate him until another place comes up.

I agree that they should be wearing coats!

Wishing you all the best Grumblestiltskin.From the info you have provided,if it were me I would remove my son.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound uncaring - it does sound like he's not enjoying it, and he should be.

I think you are probably right to have him go part-time or take him out, as he is very young and will probably get more out of being at home with you.

Tricky situation if all other schools are full - do people move in/out of your area much - so freeing up places?

I think it was difficult from your OP to deduce that he was actually that unhappy, as the only evidence you mentioned was his being unhappy in the mornings, and you also mentioned things that made it seemed like he was enjoying himself.

My dd would cry and struggle every morning, but would then come bouncing out at 3 o'clock full of excitement about what she had done in the day. SO to take her out would clearly have been the wrong decision.

If your son is unhappy throughout the day that is clearly a different matter.

Has he said what exactly he doesn't like about school - what has changed to make him think that way? At 4 children can be incredibly articulate. I have a behavioural issue currently with my son the root cause of which he has been able to articulate perfectly. Just not an easy problem to solve. Your ds's behaviour does seem pretty contradictory. It is surprising that he is upset at school and yet have lots of friends. If it were my ds I would be searching for a more fundamental cause than the social class of other pupils and parents. You need to work out what the real issue is because if you don't you may find exactly the same problem with your ds at another school. Your concerns about chavs etc are very unlikely to be shared by your ds.

If the behaviour of the majority of children is really so bad then what does the teacher, head teacher, governors say about it? My ds was regularly pushed and punched by two other boys for the first half term and had a lovely cut on his face for his school photo. I don't like the behaviour of either of these boys but I do have confidence that the school is addressing it. I have just told my ds not to go near either of these two and to tell the teacher straight away if they do anything. He isn't the only child being hit so I'm not worried about him being picked on.

From what I hear of other schools this sort of behaviour is pretty normal so it sounds as if you may be happier off down the HE.

route...

Grumble- fwiw I think that you are doing the right thing. I don't think that it is normal for a child to be that unhappy everyday, for the first few weeks fine but your ds sounds like this is really upsetting him.

I also understood what you said about the type of people at the school. You obviously were not trying to be offensive.

I was HE and thank God that my parents listened to me when I was deeply unhappy at school.
Best of luck

Are you sure it's your son who's unhappy at school, and not just that you don't like it?

Some children cry about going to school each day because they know they get a reaction. (of course, many other children cry because they are genuinely unhappy).

That said, I changed dd1's school in September because I didn't think she was happy there. Took a lot of dithering and pondering on our part - but it was definitely the best thing we ever did for her. In some ways, we didn't realise how bad things were at the old school until we saw how things could be. The "ethos" of the new school fits with our family "ethos", there are more children there like dd1, and my advice to anyone with a persistantly unhappy child would be to consider a new school.

Thank you bigTillyMint,noonki,cory,MollieO ad flynnie.

MollieO- I would love to HE him but he enjoys the social side so much, just hates everything else. I have tried talking to him but he just says that he'd rather be home and he hates school.

Flynnie - Yes I?m glad you agree, I think two months being so upset and emotional every day is too much every day. and no I wasn't trying to be offensive at all.

cory - He is happy at the end of the day when he come out of school but often on the weekend and in the evenings he?s burst into tears and begged me not to take him to school the next day. I try to be so positive about his school and want him to go and have fun but its really hard seeing such a little child being so upset. He?s normally a very confident and happy child.

scarletlilybug - although the school was not on our list of choices I was really happy that he got a place in a seemingly lovely school that was nearby. My son has never played up before so I really don't think it?s that, especially as he?s so distraught. Unless he?s a bloody good actor!

My unhappiness with the school is a recent thing. Yes my partner and I have been doing a lot of dithering and pondering too. I think its time for action on our part

Grumblestiltskin - skimmed thread and can see you have a mixed bag of responses. FWIW I'll add this... You know your son better than anybody else on the planet, so go with your gut on this.

My son's school surprises me at the level of care and concern they show my YR son, as a result I trust the school absolutely. The chav/foreign thing is neither here nor there IMO. You see rough kids and worry about the environment he spends his days in. I don't have trouble understanding that.

Maybe there are schools you didn't consider when you did your Admissions? They may have places available. Keep positive, keep doing whatever it is you are doing, and check out reasonable good school options open to you in the area.

good luck

I'd say trust your gut instincts on this one. Life is a bit too short to be upset (both of you!).

Well, if he is upset at other times than the mornings, then I would give more weight to that.

Grumblestiltskin, hate doing the 'haven't read the whole thread thing....', but I have only skimmed over it and am at work, so sorry if you have already answered some questions.

DD started school Jan 08, she was 5 end of June, so was 4.6 when she started. First week OK, then the tears started. To cut a long story short she cried every day for 6 months. It varied from full on hysterical crying and having to be peeled off us, to brave trying to hold it in sobbing (that made us feel worst of all). It was hell for all concerned. Sunday we would have tears at home about going to school the next day. She wanted to stay at home. Sunday night/Monday morning would be the 'my tummy hurts, I feel ill' hoping she could stay at home. Have you spoken at length to his teacher or teaching assistant if there is one? We were lucky to be able to do this and it transpired that she was COMPLETELY fine 99% of the time at school. Once or twice she had tears at school, but then so did all the other new ones at some point, so nothing abnormal there. She had friends, although her best friends were in the other class, so the teacher 'helped' her break into a few friendship groups in the class. We changed her to packed lunch as she was finding it hard to tell the lunch staff what she wanted then getting upset if she had to try some of the food that she hadn't wanted in the first place. This was the main problem and as soon as I told the teacher she was mortified that she hadn't noticed as she went to lunch with them and tried to help. She was happier with a packed lunch so we did let her have that. Her main probelms were she got completely overwhelmed going in to school and seeing everyone she liked and the teachers. Once she was in and sat down she was OK. Lack of confidence really. I spoke weekly to the teacher/teaching assistant who were very caring, but we did withdraw a tiny bit of TLC after a few months when she was heard telling another child 'if you cry Mrs X holds your hand' . I went in to help one morning on the request of the teacher so that I could see how happy she was. I think the teacher was worried that I must think DD was being shut in a cupboard or bullied or something, her morning hysterics were that bad. All I am trying to say is that you need to really get to the bottom of exactly how unhappy he actually is in the day time. The day DD took in her party invites in June she stopped crying. I really think it took her that long to feel confident and not overwhelmed. Now 11 months later she is in Year 1 and loves it all and is a different child.

Also in reception, kids would come out with coats on, but not done up (they have to do it themselves), I think they may have been prompted to put them on. In Year 1 they come out without if they haven't put it on themselves. I think you need to get a grip with this one. There ARE 30 kids, they ARE old enough to put a coat on without help it really isn't the end of the world. Mine were playing in the snow at the weekend in the garden in pyjamas. They came in when they were cold, they survived

I agree with the other posts here in the fact that you know your child best.

One thing I do think it is important to try and get to the bottom of is why is he unhappy at school. If he is unhappy at school per se then changing schools won't change that at all and the upheaval might make him more upset.

Not at all on the same scale but my ds came home in tears most days for the first 2 or 3 weeks when he started school. As a working mum I had no opportunity to do the school run and see for myself if there was a problem or not so I relied on those taking/collecting him to tell me. I took the afternoon off to collect him from school one day to have a word with his teacher (he was at the stage of sobbing in his sleep). She almost collapsed with laughter and said that he was one of the most popular boys in his class.

I eventually got to the bottom of his angst - he wanted to invite his new friends for a sleepover and they had said no!

I'd also check with his teacher to see if he is unhappy during the day or if there are trigger points that make him unhappy.

i think its you that is unhappy and your ds is picking up on it. I hated dd school that she was in for reception, for all the reasons you dislike your ds's but i just used to try not to let it affect dd.
We have now moved, dd is in a fab school but she still goes on about her old school and how much she misses it.
Think its quite common for kids to have socks and shoes on wrong feet on pe days!!
Apply for another school but dont pull him out until you have a place it will give him the idea that he can just leave if he doesnt like something

Sounds like he is just having the same wobbles that many kids go through when they start school - DD is 8 and sometimes eats her lunch on the way home as she wants to get out and play with her friends.

I really wouldn't tie yourself in knots about this - you will get badly behaved kids and kids with behavioural issues in all schools no matter if they are faith schools or in a really good area.

Grumblestiltskin - I posted on mn about possible school-changing and had really helpful responses. What I have learned is that waiting lists change enormously after reception, so you as a family are not tied to this school. That knowledge alone may help you to take a deep breath and a step back. Regard this time now as settling in/thinking-about time; re-visit schools, go and see other schools, take a good look at this school. Decide what you really like and would suit your child and ask schools how often places come up after reception and what your child's chances of a place are. Just knowing the door is not shut can really help you get a good perspective on the situation.
Good luck.

If he loves the social side, can you get out of him what exactly it is that he hates about school? I know it is hard to get coherent answers from a 4yo on things like this, but if he is not struggling on the social side then I would be less worried TBH.

..and the days when my DS (now Y2) comes back from school after PE/swimming/whatever with everything on the right way out and the right way round are Red Letter days. Shoes I agree are more important but you will just have to find a trick which works for your DS to remember which way round they go - I only have 2 DC and DD still escapes with wellies on the wrong feet quite often - the teacher stands no chance with 30 of them!

if your not happy then pull him out. councils often say there are no places when there might be one if you go to the school directly. I pulled my son out at the same age after one term, I regret the fact that I waited that long. 1/2 a term is long enough if you dont want him to spend the next 5 years there! my son loved his next school and made lots of friends really quickly as kids do. But make sure you talk to the teacher and head first.I talked to his teacher and the head and she was terrible so that confirmed my decision. he started his next school after the half term so it was much easier. good luck!

Glad to see these later responses are a lot more measured and you're not being called a racist or snob!- I got that whole snob thing when I was anxious about a class split due to happen which might have thrown my well-behaved, 'achieving as well as he could' DS into a lion's den of hurled chairs and 'f' words, dishevelled, unwashed abusive DCs falling out of the cars of mum's latest boyfriend every morning routine! LUCKILY for my family it didn't happen. The snide remarks on MN ended when a poster reminded everyone that they didn't flame all the private school parents who had used their money to buy their way out of those sort of schools! And, like you, what I wanted for my DS was well-behaved DCs from decent homes surrounding him! As for 'racist', you'll always be on a sticky wicket there- I think people don't want to admit that it IS possible for a white native born DC to be racially discriminated against and basically shunned in school if they don't form part of the dominant culture of the school. Though I have a friend whose DSs are in an expensive prep- and the 'issue' there is that those DSs from certain 'backgrounds' take no part in the school's community life, interested only in the number of As they're buying. They write snotty letters to the PTA about how its spent cash on a new BIKE RACK not on laboratory equipment that will propel their sons closer to that A- yet they never give a brass razoo to the PTA, never give of their time or attend any of the events!

I think what others have said is true: You need to try and find out what EXACTLY is the problem- 4 year olds DO find articulacy difficult; you need to watch forming the idea that the DC can change schools every five minutes; but at the end of the day, you may have to find a different school.

As for the violent DC, you do need to go in and find out what exactly the school IS doing about that! MN is peppered with mums who find the school's response is 'we haven't got any money to deal with it, sorry'.

Very good post Gaussgirl.