Is there any teachers here who can tell me if I'm being a fussy Mum or not?

[philmassive]

My DS is in year one. He is shy and a bit of a worrier so isn't much of a one for speaking out in class, although I'm told that he's much better in smaller groups.

His year group has just been 'streamed' (for want of a better word) in their spelling tests. He has been put in the lowest group. His birthday is in March and he is in with the children who have SEN help and the younger children in the year. My friend's DD is in the same group and she is well behind him reading-wise and has extra help with reading.

Prior to the streaming taking place he had only got one spelling wrong of the 20 or more that he had been given. He is doing very nicely in his reading and is at least at the expected level for his age and a bit more if I've understood things right! Generally there seems to be no problems with his work, or if there is I haven't been told.

This afternoon I mentioned it to his teacher and she said that they had been streamed according to their ability level reported when they came up from reception and that they would be re-checked after Christmas.

My question is this... does this seem likely? That his reading is good but his spelling might be a bit ropey? And does it seem fair to you that he had been doing well in spellings (doing quiz, feel, fair easily) and now he is on bus and bin?

I know I sound like an obsessed Mother but because he isn't the most outgoing in the class I don't want him to be left behind.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Actually Feenie, while you're here can I ask you about something else as you seem to be 'in the know'?

Don't know how you do it! Work part time... my house is a tip! I'm constantly engrossed in paperwork or ironing and never get anything finished! Worry constantly about the children I am trying to get support or funding for at school as well as wondering constantly am I failing as a Mum..... And they used to call it catholic guilt..... it's got bloody nothing on a mother's guilt!!!!

I too would never want to call a primary teacher 'not very bright'. I honestly don't know how they do it.

My house is also a permanent tip, and I send my ironing out! I used to feel like that all the time, like I wasn't a good mum, teacher or wife, because I only had time to do bits of all of them. It settles down I think, I don't feel like that any more.

Of course, imaginaryfriend, would be glad to help if I can.

Thanks Feenie.

It's a kind of 'streaming' question too. Dd is 6, in Y1. She's in the 'top' group in her class and is doing well, I'm really pleased with her. Her friend is in the other Y1 'top' class and they're all at roughly the same level as dd. However dd's group is particularly highly achieving with one girl reading and writing fluently in French and English, one boy reading freely and writing / spelling amazingly, two further girls who can write / spell so well it knocks my socks off. Dd's just not up to their level, her spelling is mostly phonetically plausible but often not right - she spelt the word 'life' as lighf today for instance. Her reading is great but she's far from being a free reader and her maths is probably about average. I keep wondering how a teacher can manage an ability group when there is a discrepancy within the group about ability. Do the higher achievers have to do guided reading at a level too low for them or does dd have to read at a level too high? I worry that seeing all this genius around her will be a little soul-destroying.

Am falling asleep, Feenie I will check for your reply in the morning. Thanks!

Thing is, you don't really know the level of the other children in the class/year - your child could be above the average for his age, but not necessarily in his class.

I work in a junior school & we often get queries from concerned parents when their child who has just got 2a in their KS1 SATs is put in the lower literacy or Maths set - problem is over half the children who come up from the infants usually have 3 or 2a, and you can't put them all in one set, or one teacher would have 40 and the other 20.

Sorry, my non-sleeping ds intervened there! I can understand your worry. First of all, they will be in different groups for Literacy and Numeracy. Your dd must be very able to be in the higher group for both. It's then up to the teacher to teach them according to their abilities, which within a group of 5 will still be different. It would depend on what she was teaching, I guess - if it was a straight-forward objective, it would be easier to work with her group on the same thing, as there would be little difference in the outcome. Or she expect all the group to achieve an objective, but give your dd and her friend a little more support than the other 3/4, or give them resources to help whilst expecting the other 3 or 4 children to grasp the concept more or less unaided. It would depend on the particular aspect she was focusing on at the time - but she will be well practised at handling this sort of issue. Classes are taught broadly in ability groups, but most teachers are only too well aware that even within those similar groupings there are different rates of progress and abilities - they are all little individuals after all, not robots!
I hope this helps - let me know if I can clarify or help with anything further,

I think the debate about streaming is very valid.

www.literacytrust.org.uk/Research/stream.html

Eeek! Just come back expecting one or two replies and found all this! Wow.

So am I getting the gist that nobody thinks this is out of the ordinary as it may be to do with him getting more support or the fact that he has a good memory more than anything else? Would that also explain why he's a good reader? Just remembers the story rather than just reading it?

Anybody got any clever strategies to check whether it's memory or ability?

Should I just wait and see after Christmas? My friend's DS cannot read anywhere near as well as DS (same age bar a week)and he's in the top group.

I really thought spelling and reading would go together. Not sure where he is in other subjects although he did get a 'good work' award for numeracy. Although that might just mean that he managed to finish, rather than that the quality was good! He's a bit of a perfectionist so it takes him ages to do anything.

For the record, I have great faith in my DS's teachers, just can imagine that with 30 odd kids it would be easy to make a mistake when sorting out who goes in what group.

If you want to check his reading, give him a book that he hasn't seen before. See how much he is reading the words, and how much he is relying on the pictures. Also, ask him to tell you what the story was about.

For spelling, you could ask him to write you a story or a letter.

You are asking a lot of a Y1 child though.

From what I can work out:
"Setting"= ability groups within usual class.
"Streaming"= ability groups mixing up different classes (and teachers).

Hey, that was perfectly obvious (NOT ) from the wordings.

And that link Fairymum gave, says that 'streaming' is probably fine for the highest ability children, but not the lowest ability groups (I have DC in both camps).

Is all what I just wrote correct understanding?

I think it is definitely worth approaching the teacher in a enquiring rather than complaining manner in the hope that a discussion will arise which will answer your issues or maybe make the teacher reconsider. Some of the explanations on here may well be right, but without raising the issue you will not know.

Don't be fooled into thinking that a child who reads well will naturally be a good speller. Lots of children have quite a large anomily between reading and spelling age it's quite normal. There is quite a big difference between reading a word and then transfering that to the memory in order to write it down.

Also, when you say that your ds only got one spelling wrong do you mean in tests that they practise for on a weekly basis?

Quite as lot of children do well in these if they have practised hard but lots of children do not then transfer this over into their independent writing. Also lots of the tests infants tend to learn for are phonic based but there are alot of key words which need to be learned by a look and say method and it may be these he is having difficulty with.

I am a teacher but secondary, I myself have always had secellent reading but poor spelling. I was however always in the top stream for everything. I suspect though that my bad spelling did not come to light until I was in my teens as I am very good at basic spelling I just get it wrong with more complex words.

I teach humanities and have children in my top set who when set for literacy alone would be in a lower set as their reading and understanding skills are excellent but their written work is poorer.

Fairymum why would you say that primary teachers are not that bright. I would say that primary teachers have to have a greater knowledge of education, child psychology than the secondary ones ( generally of course) as we tend to be more subject focussed.

It would be interesting to know what the OP means when she says the classes are streamed.

I think this word is sometimes used wrongly.

Streaming means that you are with the same, similarly able, children for each of your lessons. Setting means that you are in suitable groups according to your ability in each subject, so can be in different sets within the flexibility of the timetable blocking.

I think traditional streaming is very unusual nowadays - the ultimate, however, being grammar schools making up a top stream vs their partner secondary modern schools.

At my DDs' primary school, they 'set' by having the children sit at specific tables, but they are not explicit at what it means to be on each table. They move children up and down a year for maths lessons, and it is obvious to everyone who is smart and who is struggling (or how fast they are developing).

My DC do quite well in tests as they memorise the spellings. But once they learn the spellings, they soon forget them and don't use them in their writing.

Both DC are better readers than spellers. DS spells phonetically correct at 6yrs, DD has the correct letters in her words, but they are often jumbled. She was recently diagnosed as having dyslexia which explains that very common mistake with the spellings.

I personally would wait until after Christmas and see what happens there. If you are still concerned about the grouping, could you ask for a meeting with the teacher. That might give you the chance to look at your DS's work.

I think you're right, squeakypop, OP has not used the precise wording correctly -- then again, neither could I understand what the words meant until you posted it. The language for talking about these things is barmy, completely confusing.

About OP's DC's spelling group: since there is another group to move up to, and it's only Yr1, I would just wait until January for the reassessment.

DS is Yr4 and last year was getting words like 'indiscriminant' and this year is getting words like 'nudge' apparently he is in top spelling group already I have given up asking whether he might be extended more spelling wise.

I read your link with interest, Fairymum. However, all it supports is the notion of a debate - there is not one scrap of evidence at all in any of the studies that supports your case. There is some negative evidence regarding streaming, mainly in secondary school but, as I explained to you beforehand, that is different to teaching in ability sets, which is what the op describes. In fact many of the reports you link to speak favourably about primary school setting.

Looking at each one in turn:

Study by Claudia Ward for Social Market Foundation. Evidence from study:
"But teachers teach better when they have a group with similar abilities. In a mixed-ability class, high-ability kids can be left to read by themselves, while teachers help the low-ability kids. But if all the abilities in a group are the same, then you can pitch the teaching at the right level."
One comment (not study) by Sue Palmer (one Literacy consultant out of hundreds employed by local education authorities) is negative, but her remark refers to the testing of said setted children, not the setting itself.

Next one then - a DFES study against streaming, states that "agrees that grouping children within classes, common in primary schools, may have the potential to raise standards."
Nothing to support your argument there then so next one:
Study from King's College, London, about secondary school streaming for GCSEs. [Hmm] Next one then....
Report from the NFER - the main findings were that streaming or setting, compared with mixed ability teaching, have no effect on overall pupil achievement, or achievement across subject areas, either at primary or secondary level. But the limited research on within class grouping in primary schools shows that it does have a positive effect on pupils' attitudes, self esteem and achievement (mostly in linear subjects like maths and science).

And that's it. So I am baffled by your link really, Fairymum. But the teaching profession aren't that bright, are we, so maybe I missed something....?

Feel free to apologise for your idiotic remark any time.

Whoops, somehow missed out lovely Ofsted. I swear it was subconsciously on purpose. Here you go - 'OFSTED's report, 'Setting in Primary Schools' strongly recommends setting children as it can be a powerful way of improving performance.'

Did anybody see last weekend that Ofsted have just failed their own inspection?

Spelling doesn't go with reading necessarily. DS can read really well. His spelling is rubbish.

My Dd is an avid book worm, has a fantastic use of language when writing but can't spell to save her life.

Thanks for your answer to my question Feenie. That will do nicely

phil, how do you know your ds is a much better reader than a friend of his in the top group? Not criticising just wondering as I would find it difficult to know if dd was a better reader as I don't come into contact with that side of dd's peers. I can see how they're writing / drawing etc. because their work goes on the walls.

Is it because your ds is on a higher level reading scheme? Do you know what level others in his current group are on? If on the off-chance the teacher has made a mistake in her placing of your ds I'm sure it will soon become apparent and he'll be moved. Also how do you know he's in the 'bottom' group?

I was interested at parents' evening to hear that although dd was described as a 'very strong' reader she was not the strongest reader in her group. But she was the one with the best comprehension. I was quite pleased about that as without the comprehension there's little point to being able to read a lot of words is there?