What are dinner ladies for? Sorry, rambling!

[lljkk]

I'm a foreigner, so be kind to me, please...

That thread about the lad with reflux not eating any lunch, and a recent experience with DS got me thinking. I'm sure there was no such thing as dinner ladies when I was a child, where I grew up. We had lunch time supervisers, but they were there to ensure order, not to monitor who ate or didn't eat, etc.

So, for instance, DC not allowed to swap food at lunch times with other kids (but I did as a child). DS currently only takes half a sandwich to school and an apple juice. He asked to only have the apple juice and next morning I forgot his sarnie, so I laughed and said "I guess you get what you wanted!"

Dinner lady rang me up astonished he only had apple juice, I tried to explain, DS was quite happy with his lunch, understand, it was just dinner lady having a tizz about it. Since then apparently she hovers over DS to make sure he eats his sarnie. This is a good thing because he just wants to play not eat, but it just seems SO CONTROLLING compared to my school lunchtime experiences. And Remember how Ellen McArthur only saved up enough to buy her first boat by scrimping apples and saving her dinner money? She couldn't do it today, could she?

Anyway, I don't get it, tell me what dinner ladies are for?

"I think Ellen McArther was 8yo when she started scrimping apples rather than buy hot dinners, btw, very much still a primary school!"

If this meant that Ellen McArthur's concentration was sinking by the middle of the afternoon, then I think her teachers did have something to complain about.

I am one of those mums who wouldn't fuss if their child went without lunch during the holidays. But that's because they're on holiday. You can't do academic work without the blood sugar IME. Children are at school to learn and if they are not learning because they're hungry, then resources are being wasted.

And if I had been Ellen McArthur's Mum I would have told her in no uncertain terms that using money that I provided for one purpose for something different was dishonest. If dd came home having bought something else with her lunch money, she would get a very stern talking-to.

You sound miffed because someone told you off. An apple juice is not sufficient for lunch, can you tell us where he gets 3 mini pizzas from at break time?

The school canteen sells the mini-pizzas, I guess (someone within the school is selling them, could be one of the School Houses using it as a fundraiser, they cost 15p each, I think they're only about 2-3" across, there are all kinds of snacks for sale for KS2). He only has 2/morning at the moment.

Juule: DS low lunchtime appetite nothing to do with healthiness of the snacks, it's just to do with maximising playtime.

School hot dinners cost a lot more than even a large packed lunch, ime, and DS wouldn't actually eat any more (so I'd be paying more for less food, as it were).

I wasnt miffed, more slightly amused at the consternation I'd caused (well, really, DS caused). Years ago I used to try to get dinner ladies to try to get DS to eat more for lunch, but we never had any joy, so have given up. It was a ONE OFF accident when he only had the apple juice in there.

I remember the thread about how much people put in lunch boxes and DC were definitely on the low side. But That's just all they want. DD eats very slowly, DS wants to run play instead.

But this wasn't supposed to be about lunch box contents, I just find it a bit... unfamiliar? nanny state?, to have someone so closely involved with lunch time contents etc.

I think teachers are simply fed up these days with trying to work with kids who can't concentrate because they are not eating or sleeping properly. Some kids would get very hyper if they did not have a balanced meal- and that's not really fair on the others.

No different from when I was at school in the 60's/70's- except that we had no choice about what you ate.

Do you really think those are the main reasons some children can't concentrate, Cory?

Because From my experiences as parent-helper (admittedly only Reception-Yr3), it seems to me that the reason most children who act up do act up, is because they don't get what's going on -- literally, the academic side is going straight over their heads. Because they don't get it, they get bored, and act up instead.

If they could read sooner or understand the maths better, they would engage better, and not be naughty.

Plus, in Reception-year one, the children who flag most in the afternoons seem to be the youngest ones, so I think it's an age thing often.

The few children who are exceptions to my little rule there, I don't know what causes of their problems are, though one mom told me it was specifically because the teachers he had weren't strict enough. This year he is now placed with a teacher who has a reputation as a dragon lady (very strict, according to all), he started to come on leaps and bounds and the mom is overjoyed.

So Not, from what I can tell, the sleep/food things cory mentioned, anyway.

Captainmummy: what do you do for picky eaters? Do the parents approach you and say:

My child is fussy so that's why his lunch box is full of junk?

Stand over my child and make sure he eats everything?

Stand over my child and don't let him leave to play until he's had a bite of everything?

Hold my child's hand the whole lunch time (literally) or he won't eat?

I mean, does a dinner lady do those things, are you expected to by most parents?

Surely any sane responsible person working in a school would ask 'Where's your lunch?' if only so they could provide something from the catering department if it had been forgotten.

Also, there are MANY primary school children who would rather run off and play with their friends than eat their lunch (mine used to be like that) and it was reassuring to have the teacher/lunchtime supervisor remind her that she actually had to eat first.

I think children are better able to understand/concentrate if their blood sugar levels are not low, yes certainly. So do I. And if they find it easier to understand, then they are less likely to play up.

I would expect a dinner lady to tell my child that he can't run off and play during the time that is set side for eating. Just like I would expect his class teacher to tell him he can't go off and play when it's time for maths, or read a story when it's time for PE. If I couldn't cope with the idea that the school decides what times are set aside for different activities, I would home school.

Agree that it is better for children not to be forced into eating every scrap as they were when I was little (and some pretty unpalatable stuff we got too!), but surely expecting a child not to run off before they've eaten anything is reasonable. Dc's aren't allowed to choose to play at dinnertime when they're at home, so why should they be allowed at school?

llkjj - we were expected to notice when a child hadn't eaten very much, but I know from my own dc that you cannot force them to eat. There are lots of studies re. food intake and childrens' concentration, and I would back that with my own observations. There was a v v 'disruptive' child started in reception while I was there; I would see him in town buying a doughnut (or rather mum was) for breakfast, and his lunchbox would be pop-tarts or similar. The school persuaded mum to allow him school dinners, ie a balanced, hot, nutricious meal. His behavious improved immensely - even more so when they didn't stop via the bakery on the way to school.

And I have to say -i'm not surprised he is not hungry by lunch if he is eating 2-3 mini-pizzas at break. I am that the school allow it, it cannot be within guidelines. Is this in england?

lljkk on Thu 06-Nov-08 13:41:25
"The school canteen sells the mini-pizzas, I guess (someone within the school is selling them, could be one of the School Houses using it as a fundraiser, they cost 15p each, I think they're only about 2-3" across, there are all kinds of snacks for sale for KS2). He only has 2/morning at the moment."

How come such a young child is getting food from a source that you don't even know what it is? And if he takes a packed lunch, how come he goes into school with money in his pocket?

I'm a lunchtime supervisor, and if a child who didn't have school dinners came in with only an apple for lunch I'd have to get him a cooked meal.

Some parents complain at us when we allow their children to go without eating their sandwiches - even if they refuse to eat.

We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I love it that the OP was amused that the fact her DS had no lunch caused a stir, FGS any normal person would be mortified, slightly concerned or something other than amused.

I know you don't want to discuss the contents of his lunch but as that was what attracted the attention of the dinner lady I think it is relevent, you also say you actually asked the dinner ladies to help encourage him to eat more lunch, so I think you do understand their involvement in encouraging children to eat.

You ever wonder why children "don't get it" in class, usually they are tired and often lack of food or late nights are the reason, this makes it difficult to concentrate and "get it". Unless you think all the children are a bit dim or the work is too hard for them.

But I knew that he didn't have the sarnie, Skramble, so how could I be mortified at the news of it from dinner lady? Or are you sayign I shoudl have been deathly embarrassed that someone noticed what you perceive as my lapse of judgement?

In which case, by your logic, the dinner lady should have been equally embarrassed that she didn't notice that he was only having his apple juice on previous occasions.

But I don't blame her for that, I didn't know it was her job to 'make' him eat, and I wouldn't want her to, anyway. There are some badly behaved children in that class, she needs to keep them under control as first priority.

I guess people expect a huge lot of dinner ladies? Doesn't sound realistic to me.

So that's the answer to my OP, dinner ladies are there to fulfill unrealistic expectations (cheeky ).

Is it not relevant that it was only ONE DAY, an ACCIDENT, and my child was HAPPY WITH just AJ that ONE DAY, and I thought SOD IT, on this ONE DAY, I will let you HAVE SOME AUTONOMY, and make this decision, so then you will understand why it isn't a good idea every day?

2sugars: DS not able to eat lunch before play, school hall is too small, so KS2 go play while KS1 have lunch, then after KS1 have mostly finished KS2 queue up to go eat lunch (they have to listen for a specific bell to know when to queue), then KS2 go play again if time.

I give DS 30p to pay the mini-pizzas, is everyone saying I shouldn't? Yes school is a bog standard state primary in England, he was buying 3/day but I think he found that too filling/time-consuming. He says the queue to buy them is long and "School must make a fortune". Each mini-pizza is only 3 bites for him, so surely not that filling a snack?? Some children buy more pizzas than DS does, he says.

Even if I didn't give him the 30p (just to get you all's approval), he'd still only eat a sarnie+Apple juice for lunch, I promise! So in the respondents' combined wisdom it would be better if I didn't give him the 30p so that he had less total food during the day, is that right?

This from the group who insist it can't be a state primary school in England working within healthy food guidelines, ok... right.

Are you all saying that the only reason some children are slow to get reading and numbers is because of late nights and bad food? So the parents are always to blame, is that right?

I can't see why you are making such a huge fuss over this one. Why not let the school get on with it? And no, it wasn't different in the old days in English schools as far as I'm aware; children were supposed to eat their food. As they were in Scandinavia where I grew up. They were also supposed to do maths at set time and PE at other times, in this country also expected to wear certain clothes. Autonomy was something for their spare time.

Don't remember any parents being that interested in a minor factor of school life in those days. Sorry, but you sound a bit micro-managing to me, like you should have control over what goes on in the school day. And more specifically, that the school should suddenly change its policy to fit what you are used to.

I also came from another country, concepts like school uniform are alien to me, and teachers are addressed in different, more formal ways here, but I wouldn't expect them to change to suit me.

Where I went to school children were given autonomy in what they wear, here they are not. Shrugged shoulders, things are different, not worth a fuss.

Cory, the impression that I got isn't that lljkk is making a fuss but just that she was surprised and mildly amused that she was contacted over her son's lunch (or lack of). which she considers to be her responsibility.

In fact, it appears to me that she considers the school to be the one 'micro-managing' if anyone is.

Of course, I could be wrong.

That's sort of right, Juule. I started this thread because when I read about the boy with reflux not eating his lunch, I decided I was confused about the extent of the responsibilities of lunchtime staff, and I didn't want to hijack that other thread.

Speaking of which, does anybody have a link to the reflux-related thread I'm talking about? I wondered what the resolution was.