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dd in reception not allowed to go to toilet so had massive explosive poo accident

53 replies

Howlingbellyofbeelzebub · 20/10/2008 23:22

dd was 4 in August so a young one in reception. She has suffered severe constipation since the summer which the school know about. This weekend she was given new medication which really helped but left her with 'speedy poo'. This morning I told the class teacher that she would need to go to toilet suddenly and left a change of clothes in case of accidents. At the start of lunch time dd was out in the playground, needed to poo and asked the dinner lady but was refused - ok so the dinner lady wasn't told about dd's poo thing but why would you not let a 4 year old go to the toilet? it's bloody ridiculous.

So dd didn't make it, had massive pooing thing and actually had to be taken into the disabled toilet and was showered clean . Poor dd, she then didn't have time to eat lunch so came home really hungry and it was her very first day full-time today . The staff who helped her out were really kind with her and did not make a big deal about it at all but at the dinner lady. I'm going to have to talk to her teacher again in the morning. I just don't get why children would not be allowed to go to toilet - they're only 4 years old FGS.

OP posts:
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Blandmum · 21/10/2008 12:05

But getting paid doesn't stop it being stressful. It just meens that you are paid for the stress.

I don't do break supervision any more. I supervise them getting onto buses and that is much easier

ghosty · 21/10/2008 12:05

And I know what lunch time supervision is like (10 years of teaching) ... still no need to stop a 4 year old going to the toilet FFS.

Eniddo · 21/10/2008 12:06

I imagine it can be stressful if you take it seriously

if you just stand in the playground staring over 150 little heads thinking about what to make for tea and batting away requests for the loo then no it is not stressful

Miyazaki · 21/10/2008 12:07

Enid the voice of reason yet again.

Blandmum · 21/10/2008 12:09

No, I never said that there was a reason for stopping a child going to the loo.

I'm just saying it is a stressful job.

Because IME it is.

Blandmum · 21/10/2008 12:10

I think that there needs to be a way of this school getting information that is passed onto staff during briefing passed onto the lunchtime staff.

moosemama · 21/10/2008 12:19

I can't believe that they don't let the kids go to the toilet during playtime/lunchtime. My DS was told he's not allowed to go during lessons as he is supposed to go at playtime!

Regardless of toiletting issues or problems, if a 4 year old says she needs the toilet, she needs the toilet, especially if she says it when she will have to stop playing and leave her friends to go.

Am so sorry for your daughter. I would definitely speak to the teacher about it again and probably write a note as well so that it goes on record.

ghosty · 21/10/2008 12:23

I am sooooo bloody glad that I am able to keep DD at home for a bit longer her in Aus. She starts in Feb (she would have started this Septembe in the UK) just a day before she turns 5. That extra 6 months is a bloody godsend as she is only just getting to grips with wiping her own bum etc. And when she needs a poo she needs it NOW - I hear a "IneedapoopooIneedapoopooIneedapoopoo" as she legs it in from the garden and to the bathroom
At their school they have a policy of not even needing to ask to go to the toilet. They make eye contact with the teacher and make a T shape with their hands and she just nods, mid story or sentence or whatever.

WigWamBam · 21/10/2008 14:05

Oh, it's a stressful job alright - if, as Enid says, you take it seriously.

Most of us do. It's those who don't who give the rest of us such a terrible reputation.

We have all the responsibility during our couple of hours that the teachers do, with none of the training, none of the respect, and without being able to discipline the children in the same way as the teachers can.

Today I was outside in the playground. I acted as a counsellor to a child who is having a shitty time in an abusive home, referee to several children who were hell-bent on strangling each other, shoulder to cry on for several children who are having difficulty settling in. We are also expected to be nutritionists, mediators and punchbags, and put up with being spat and and sworn at most days without raising our voices or becoming angry or upset. I have horrible scars up my arms from being attacked by a Y2 child - a six year old - last year who decided he was going to sink his teeth and nails into me because I pulled him off a boy he was trying to strangle.

When we are outside, four of us have to supervise 270 children - and without those eyes in the backs of our heads which would be so very useful, it's impossible to watch them as closely as we (or their parents) would like. And when someone is hurt because we were dealing with something else, or because those eyes in the backs of our heads weren't working, we bear the brunt of the parents who have only heard one side of the story and believe the popular idea that we are all thick as pig shit and get off on being mean to children.

What people often forget is that we get the worst behaviour of the day - when they aren't sitting down in one place being given a task to focus on. We see them letting it all out, and their behaviour is not the same as it is in the classroom. They fight, they push, they hurt each other. They often don't listen to what you are telling them, and if you tell them once not to climb that tree/pull those plants up/kick that child you will still find yourself telling them again and again and again and again ... it's like banging your head up against a brick wall, but without the relief when it stops!

There is one particular duty I have to do which involves supervising the Y2 children playing football, and they are more violent with each other than you would ever believe possible. I hate my job that day; I regularly come home and spend the afternoon in tears at the way the children have behaved to me, and the way I have had to talk to them to get them to listen to me. And this is a nice school with (mostly) well-behaved children in it.

There is also the fact that children don't always tell the whole truth about us. One mother came in all guns blazing once, because apparently I had handcuffed her son to the railings and made him stand there all lunchtimes. We don't have any railings, we don't (unfortunately ) have any handcuffs, and although I had spent the entire lunchtime trying to stop her son from beating the living daylights out of another boy, I hadn't so much as raised my voice to him.

Yes, it's a short shift. But it is hard graft, and it is more stressful than I would ever have believed it to be.

Surfermum · 21/10/2008 14:19

I bought dsd's lunchtime supervisor a gift voucher at the end of her reception year and wrote a note thanking her for all she had done for dd. I had a lovely letter back from her thanking me. It sounded like they don't often get appreciated or valued and she really was touched that I had thought of her. I was surprised - I thought everyone would have done the same.

CountessDracula · 21/10/2008 14:21

I can't believe anyone would prevent a 4yo from going to the loo when they ask

Howlingbellyofbeelzebub · 21/10/2008 17:33

Well dd still had 'fast poo' this morning so I kept her off school for today but hopefully she'll be back tomorrow. I think as in any profession there are good lunchtime supervisors and less good ones. The one thing I need to check is if the not allowing children to go to toilet thing is a school policy of just of that particular lunchtime supervisor.

OP posts:
SqueakyPop · 21/10/2008 17:37

Sounds like there was miscommunication - ie the class teacher didn't pass on the info.

It seems weird that a child is not allowed to go to the toilet during lunchtime!

TBH, if I had been in your shoes, with the knowledge that this could happen with the new medication, I would not have sent her to school.

When we lived in the USA, the schools had a rule about not going back until 24 hours after the 'last bathroom emergency' (ie D or V), and I would put this into that category.

SqueakyPop · 21/10/2008 17:43

As for letting children go to the toilet as soon as they ask, I would say that is a bad idea. It only encourages them not to go when they are meant to, or go just because they can't be bothered with the lesson. I always make my pupils wait (I don't teach little ones, but I would at least wait a few minutes if I did).

I generally don't let anyone out at all if it is the first lesson after a break. Also, I only ever let them out one at a time, so if two people want to go, the second one has to wait until the first has made her way there and back very slowly, done her hair, etc.

MyPumpkinDsHappyHalloweenBday · 21/10/2008 17:49

Our school has a peg system for breaks and lunchtime, literally.

They have a necklace of pegs and when child wants the toilet they hand the pegs out (limit of 10 I think). When the child has been they return the peg for anyone else waiting.

Lots f kids do take the mick, obviously your dd has licence for the toilet anytime even assembly. dinerladies should have been informed.
Poor lamb chop!!

MyPumpkinDsHappyHalloweenBday · 21/10/2008 18:05

wig, hats off to you, you sound great.
Only 4 adults to watch 270 kids. Thats a bad ratio, surely there should be more.

WigWamBam · 21/10/2008 18:23

There are more, Pumpkin - just not all outside. "Up to" 270 is more accurate I suppose, given that they go in class by class for dinner. There is also a little playground where the Reception children can go if the big one gets too much for them and there's usually a couple of ladies in there, then there are two or three in the dining room, one on first aid and a couple who float, so could be put anywhere. The minimum we should have in the big playground is four, although if someone is absent we have to manage with three and not get the organised games out.

Our school is well organised in that our supervisor works full time as the children's mentor - so she is there in the playground in the morning for parents to speak to with their concerns, and can then pass those concerns onto us. That's partly the problem in the OP's school, by the sounds of it - without a link between the parent and the lunchtime supervisors, there's no way of knowing what parental concerns there are.

asdmumandteacher · 21/10/2008 19:05

Try it Eniddo - i would hate to do that job - its bad enough doing break duty once a week. Agree MB.

nolongeraworriedmummy · 21/10/2008 19:52

OK, not read all posts but what has dinner ladies job got to do with neglecting a childs needs?

I have done playground supervision every playtime apart from lunch daily when I worked in school, I got £140 a week pay after tax by the time they had split pay over the holiday weeks and that was including playground duty and ft t.a, I had no breaks when the teachers did at playtime, just at lunch.

As a TA I often didnt get important info passed on as it wasnt mentioned in meetings (including being at a school 9 months before being told there was an epi pen in the cupboard for a severly risk of anaphalatic (sp?) child.

Still I do not think that is any reason not to let ANY 4 year old go to the toilet with or without medical reasons and to actually make them poo thereselves I would be fuming!

I will never forget being ill all of christmas as a child as I already had a chest infection and was on antibiotics and permission from teachers to stay in school library at lunch time, only to be sent outside by an over zelous dinner lady who wouldnt listen and wouldnt even allow me to go back in for my coat. This being december and in snow. I will never ever forgive or forget that even though shes probably dead by now lol.

SqueakyPop · 21/10/2008 19:59

Without wanting to sound masochistic, I quite like lunch duties. It gives me half an hour to just chat with the girls (and surrepticiously find out their gossip).

But 270???

I am assuming that 270 includes 4 pupils hanging off your hands, WWB, and others showing your their scratched knees, daisy they have picked, etc. That means that your have an even harder task concentrating on the rest of the kids.

Dinner ladies are always on the MBE lists - for very good reason.

nolongeraworriedmummy · 21/10/2008 20:16

I loved playground duty actually because sad as it seems, in the classroom I rarely got to talk about anything other than school work with the children in my class as we were swamped by the national curriculum so they loved playtimes and being able to just chat about home, friends, days out etc.

I HATED the school I was at for a variety of reasons but i still miss the kids.

SaTanicGore · 21/10/2008 20:49

Ratios at out school are about the same as at WWB's.

We have about 300 children at lunchtime. In total there are currently 12 supervisors but they are split over 3 playgrounds, all-weather pitch, 2 dining rooms, 8 one-to-one supervisions, 2 first aid posts (our buildings are split into KS1 and 2). To make it worse at the moment, 2 people are off sick.

About 75% of the kids will be in one main playground for the majority of lunchtime.

I can't work out the maths to that and I bloody work there! And people wonder why we get stressed

WigWamBam · 21/10/2008 20:58

You got it, Squeaky ...

Four children hanging off your hands, two showing you the paper aeroplane they've made, three dobbing in Jack for pushing over Jane, Jane sobbing and and Jack hiding somewhere he shouldn't, a couple of the more attention-seeking children competing with Jane to try and get your attention, one showing you the new bracelet which she really shouldn't be wearing in the playground, another one showing off her new hair ribbons, three begging for stickers, and still those eyes in the back of your head watching out for the other children who might variously be climbing on things they shouldn't, shoving over children they shouldn't, teasing each other, running into each other, falling over, off or through things, being in places they shouldn't be, crying because someone won't play with them, strangling each other with the skipping rope/their cardigans/the football bibs ... you get the picture.

I like being out in the playground though; for all it's problems it can be a lovely job. It's nice when the children get used to you and know that they can come and talk to you. It's lovely to share their playtime with them, tie a skipping rope to a drainpipe and sing skipping songs with them - it can actually be a real privilege to become so involved with them. Doesn't stop it being the most hectic, mind-blowingly packed, stressful couple of hours of my day!

Howlingbellyofbeelzebub · 21/10/2008 21:01

Sqeakypop - I did not know dd would have this kind of poo situation, she was fine over the weekend on the medication and for some reason it has all taken off since then even though I haven't given her any meds since Sunday morning. I still think it is utterly ridiculous to not let a 4 year old go to toilet any time they need too, my dd has a very erratic bladder and when she needs to go she needs to go. I used to teach older children too as there definatively comes a time when you know if a child is putting it on and can wait a bit longer but it is ridiculous to ever make that assumption about these little 4 and 5 year olds in reception who are basically not far off being toddlers.

OP posts:
SaTanicGore · 21/10/2008 21:05

I am appalled that you weren't notified at the time Howling. The poor mite should have gone home, not back to class.

And why on earth wasn't she fed? No time to eat lunch is a poor excuse, they should at the very least have set a meal aside for her and taken her to eat before she went back to class.

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