DS4, has to have lunch on his own, for swinging his lunch bag at Reception

[helpfulornot]

My DS2's Reception woes are continuing.

I picked him up yesterday, and the TA asked me to come into a room so she could tell me what he had got up to.

She said he had been spitting at her, and all over himself. I think it was because he couldn't go out with the other children because we were late picking him up (out of our control, had an appointment with DS2, got caught in traffic coming back, have not been late any other time).

We asked him also who he had had lunch with. He said with noone, they made him eat lunch on his own because he had swung his lunch bag around.

This is too harsh a punishment for a four-year old, isn't it, turning him into a social leper?

swinging his lunchbag could mean any amount of things though .. so it's hard to judge whether he was being threatening, hitting people or just idly swinging it .. what does school say about it? Was he warned?

as for the spitting .. well I think that needs stamping out tbh ... doesn't matter what the excuse is (and it does rather sound like you're making excuses for him in the post although I'm sure you're not)

but only you know whether this is an issue or a storm in a teacup ... if you're sure it's an issue speak to the teacher about lunchtime protocols

I only hear the teacher's side of the story, for instance last week, she told me there had been a very bad incident, he had been kicking out.

Turns out he had actually been rewarded for "good" behaviour by being given a sticker, but then it got taken off him (for some reason, not sure what, so much has been happening at school), and the teacher threw it in the bin.

I would get upset if someone threw my reward in the bin.

I am not making excuses, there are obviously "triggers" that are setting him off, in yesterday's case it was not being able to go out with the other children, so if we can find out what sets him off, then maybe we can help cope better.

We are seeing the teacher and Head of Foundation stage tomorrow.

Oh wise one, how would you stop a tired, grumpy four year old stop spitting?

tbh, unless there is a recognised SN, I think I probably would punish him by putting him in a separate place and depriving him of playtime, which seems to be what the school is doing. Kicking would also meet with similar punishment even in our gentle and cuddly infants school.

Being tired and grumpy has nothing to do with it: by the time you're 4, spitting (particularly at an adult non-family member) is not accpetable behaviour. A child that spits at an innocent bystander because his Mum is delayed, needs dealing with firmly.

And make sure you let him know that you are not making excuses. Or do you think it's ok for him to kick and spit at his teachers if he gets upset? Even legitimately upset? (and you don't actually know why his award was taken from him- maybe he did behave badly).

Not saying it can't be normal behaviour for this age, but it's normal behaviour that needs to be trained out of him at this age. And that won't happen if you keep finding excuses for him.

Or if you think he has SN which means things are more different- then you need to say so in your OP.

Taking away an award & throwing in the bin is unreasonable - I would get upset too. However, all children need to learn that there are consequences to their behaviour. Spitting, kicking and swinging bags in a dangerous fashion are not acceptable.

Good to see the teacher and work out how to handle things with her. You should be reinforcing the school, but equally they need to recognise that some children have a very accute sense of what is fair and cannot deal with perceived unfairness. They need to learn how to do that but the school aslo needs to do things like avoid throwing reward stickers in the bin. If my employer took the salary I had earned away because I did something wrong, damn right I would be hacked off.

I really sympathise with you, this was my ds in reception last year.

I do think that taking away an award and throwing it in the bin is unacceptable under any circumstances.

Having your DS eat one meal on his own is hardly going to turn him into a social leper, though. And although you say you only hear the teacher's side of the story, in this case it sounds as though so far you've only heard your son's side of the story. As Twiglett says, "swinging his lunch bag" could cover a wide range of behaviour.

I'm a dinner lady, and I can tell you that there is swinging your lunchbag around and there is swinging your lunchbag around. If he has hurt another child, broken something, refused to stop when he was asked to do so, then the punishment isn't too harsh - as long as it was just the one day where he had to eat on his own. It's intended to make him think twice before he does it again another time. I've taken children out of the dining hall to eat on more than one occasion - sometimes they need to be somewhere quiet to calm them down, sometimes they need to be away from other children to stop them hurting them, sometimes they need to be somewhere where they can simply think about their behaviour.

And if the spitting incident was before lunchtime, maybe the punishment was for more than one thing, not just swinging his lunchbag - maybe it was the last straw.

Most 4 year olds don't spit at their teachers - that needs stopping, and you need to work with him on that as well as the teachers.

Removing his sticker was wrong, and I think you need to raise that with his teachers. But otherwise I don't think they were too hard on him.

Removing his sticker does sound wrong- but again, we don't know what the circumstances were. Agree that you may need to bring this up with teacher but I would do it in a non-confrontational manner. Just ask them to clarify what happened. If you then find it was done on flimsy grounds you can bring this up and ask them not to do it again. But it may be that his misbehaviour was directly associated with the sticker- in which case they may have a point.

I would go in gently. From the particulars you give of your son's behaviour, the TA must be pretty worn out. Imagine if she had a class full of 30 children who kicked and spat at her every time they felt tired or grumpy! You wouldn't get anyone to stay in a teaching job. The reason she doesn't, of course, is that the kids know that bad behaviour will be dealt with.

I am pretty sure that him having to eat lunch on his own yesterday was not the first time.

I am well aware that spitting is not acceptable, and he knows that it is not acceptable too.

I don't know if I am going on at him too much at home about what happens at school, but each day he comes home, and before school each day we go through the rules, and he knows them.

The trouble is though, like I said before in my second post here, something in him seems to snap, which means he does do these unacceptable things. I am not making excuses for him, and would love to learn of some strategies to help him cope better.

If I thought spitting was acceptable I would not be posting here asking for strategies to help him cope better.

I am not going to go near the SN issue....

Ok, so we assume that he is actually ok from a health point of view.

I think your first port of call should be to go in and discuss it with the teacher. They need to have a strategy and they need to know that you are supportive of it. And you too need to feel you are being kept informed.

Ask for an appointment with his teacher.

Is there any particular reason why you are unhappy with him being taken away from the rest of them when he plays up? This is the normal, and considered most gentle, way of dealing with agressive behaviour in infants schools. What do you think would be a good other way of doing it? (Remember they have to do something, both for their sake and for his own. The best way of turning him into a social leper would be to let him get away with annoying behaviour when the other children don't.) Removing a trouble maker is perfectly standard procedure; it won't turn him into a social leper.

Let's assume for instance that he is swinging his lunch bag in the dining hall, he is hitting other children and creating a disturbance which makes it difficult for the others to get on with eating in peace. The first discipline, obviously, is for the dinner lady to tell him to stop it. But let's assume this is not enough, he carries on. What should she do after that, do you think? Is there any other sanction that you think would work better with him (and would be perceived as fair by the other children)?

If you have thought of something, you can suggest it but not insist on it. Try to be open to their suggestions too. You want to get a dialogue going.

Now that I've read the thread you just started over on the SN board, I'm wondering what you mean by "I am not going to go near the SN issue....".

does he ever spit at home, or is this only at school? just that if it never happens at home, then there's only IMO going to be a limited amount you can do about the behaviour. I agree with Cory - that best practice is for kids who are getting angry to have some quiet time by themselves to calm down. I would have thought in general - if you and school could agree on helping DS to identify when he is getting angry, and to find some more acceptable response - going to a quiet corner, or maybe if they would allow him a stress cow type thing to bash about.

gosh, didn't realise there was an SN thread- will investigate.

Basically, I think you need to sell the quiet corner to him as something positive done to help him. Let him see that it is the aggression that is the problem, not him or even the teacher. My friend's ds (quite a bit older) has anger management problems and the school has worked with him in this way. It has also helped the other children to feel happy about him if they know he gets removed if over-excited.

no its showing him that his actions could be dangerous to others and if her cannot behave appropriatluy then he will have to eat alone.

it may seem harsh to you but if it means he stops swinging his bag then good.
As for picking him up late...he is 4. no wonder he was upset.

As for his teacher removing a sticker, that is wrong and VERY BAD behaviour managment and this should be adressed.

I wonder why you are so angry at the refference to SN.

his behaviour is not that of a typical 4 year old and yes you are making excuses.

My advice is to pull your head out of your PFB arse and actually do something to find out why he is behaving like this...and accpet the possibility that your darling child may actually not be perfect.

We are seeing the teachers tomorrow.

Mamazon, I can see now why people don't like the PFB references, thanks very much for enlightening me. I have never said he was perfect, all I am after is some strategies to help him.