Should we appeal?

[IrisApril]

We are moving house (only up the road) to a place with a lovely village school. They have space for our youngest to start Yr 2 in September, but our elder daughter going into Yr 5, they don’t have any space. She is at the top of the waiting list, but so far no movement.

When we toured the school, the headteacher was really lovely but she basically said please don’t appeal because it costs the school money. And hinted that there should be some movement at some point.

I just phoned up again and still no movement, so we are facing the prospect of driving the children to two different primary schools come September. We both work full time and only one of us drives, so it’s going to be very difficult (although we will have to manage it somehow with busses/breakfast club/help from grandparents who live 2+hrs away).

Would you appeal? I don’t want to lose out on the goodwill of the headteacher and school, or start off on the wrong foot. But on the other hand, it’s going to make our life very difficult, she is a sibling (or will be from September), and there are only 30 children in Yr 4/5. I know that legally for KS2 they are allowed to go to 31 - the headteacher just doesn’t want to. She is a very quiet and well behaved child so I know she’d be no bother!!

Help! I am conflicted.

I wouldn't appeal yet, good chance there will be movement over summer. If still no place come the new year in september I would appeal

Sorry how big is this village? Fair enough only one of you drives, so the driver takes the Year 5 child to the old school and the other parent walks or cycles. As you’re literally in the same village as the school. I don’t see any grounds to appeal here and do you really want to start off on the wrong foot with your new school?

Appeal on what grounds??

You don't have grounds to appeal do you?

I would just hold tight and work on the hope that it will all be ok in Sept. You could have a conversation with county admissions too.

I said we are moving. We aren’t in the village yet. Village is a 15 minute drive or bus from current house. Up the motorway so cannot walk.

Husband (driver) works from 8am three days a week in the opposite direction, so he cannot do schoolrun those mornings (even with breakfast club as it doesn’t start early enough).

So three mornings a week I will have to walk eldest child to current school breakfast club, get bus to village with younger child, drop her off, bus back home (I work from
home). Somehow do the reverse in the afternoon, even though I have meetings most afternoons and can’t take that much time away from my laptop. It will be a ballache. My parents have said they will drive up and help one or two days a week, but they are late 70s and I’d rather not trouble them.

I am learning to drive but test isn’t until end of September.

Year 5 - of course appeal. You need to show the detriment to your child not going outweighs the detriment to them taking her. Why do you want to move them both though assuming they’re settled where they are and you’re only moving up the road?

Not sure, that’s why I was posting for advice. I suppose on the grounds that legally they have room, and her sibling goes to the school?

Your Grounds for appeal are that it is logistically difficult to get children to different schools. That isn’t something that warrants an appeal.

It’s inconvenient for you, but there may be a space available sooner rather than later. It doesn’t matter that your child is well behaved and quiet. What matters is that the school is currently full in her year group.

They don't legally have room if there's not a place.

Current school has very poor KS2 results and honestly a bad fit, especially for older child who is quiet and studious.

Village school is fantastic and a much better fit. Plus we are moving to the village so just makes sense.

YABU. This is the risk you took when you moved.

Why should someone else have a ballache so that you don’t have to when it was your choice to move? You know that appealing will have negative consequences for a small primary school, why would you be selfish enough to do that?

You probably wouldn’t win an appeal anyway. Having to use breakfast club for one child and having a slightly awkward school run is not grounds to win an appeal. Everyone would resent you, from the headteacher who had to waste time and money fighting you to the parents who would know that your choices took money and resources away from their children.

Per my first post, we haven’t moved yet, and we are actually not appealing. I posted looking for other views, as I know nothing about appeals and hadn’t considered it (headteacher was the one that mentioned it). But thanks for your kind advice 🙄

I agree with the others. You basically want to force the school to take your DD because you want to live in the village.

If you are only moving 15 minutes you could stay at the current school. When are you actually moving as it's not very clear?

If you haven’t moved yet you have even less reason to appeal. Your child has a school place you are happy with.

The results of the allocated school are not a reason for appeal. Someone’s children have to go there and plenty of parents could claim their children is quiet, studious and likely to be no bother.

KS2 classes aren’t limited to 30 by law like KS1 classes, but that doesn’t automatically mean that the classrooms can comfortably accommodate extra children. They don’t tend to have spare desks, pegs, trays, chairs etc all just waiting around in case someone decides to appeal.

When are you likely to move? You could keep them both as is until then.

Ok then you need to flesh out the ‘better fit’ argument. Poor results won’t cut it. How exactly is the village school fantastic? Maths club for your keen and able mathematician? Participation in county athletics events for your keen runner? School choir to enhance her Saturday morning music club?

Convenience isn't a reason - it's convenient for everyone who can't get in. The fact you've bought a house and are moving without checking that there is a space beforehand may also be viewed poorly by the panel. It certainly would be in our area.
Because you should be able to demonstrate the panel is independent, schools often have to pay for this service. One of our schools has spent over £5k for appeals this year. That's without paying for admissions team to prepare the case and present it at the appeal (that comes for free but costs their time). That is money that should be spent on the education of the children at the school.

However, you have a right to appeal, even if you have no case.

But making sense doesn’t give grounds for appeal. They are at PAN and therefore legally they are in a strong position.

As a Headteacher, I dont take it personally if parents appeal and it shouldn't go against you or the family. The issue is they are full in the class your older child would be in. All schools have a net capacity and to take over this number can be unsafe due to space, exit routes etc. You would have to show that your child has an exceptional circumstance like an EHCP or is Looked After to force them to go over capacity.

No you wouldn’t. EHCP kids shouldn’t go to appeal at all. And you don’t need to be a previously looked after to be successful either. As a head you should know that.

As I understand it, to win an appeal you’d need to prove that your child’s need for a space at this school outweighs the negative impact to the school of admitting an extra child.

So you’d need as many arguments in favour of your child being admitted as possible. You say it’s a better fit, so think about how specific you can make that argument. A better fit in what respect? Convenience alone is unlikely to be enough.

And bear in mind that even without the legal class size restrictions there’s limits on how many desks etc can be physically squeezed into a classroom. This isn’t necessarily about the head refusing simply because that year group is filled up.

@JaneLupin There isn’t a legal class size for y5. It will be about pan and space. If the pan is 30 snd they have 30 dc, they are full in y5 but not because 30 is a legal class size. The head has every right to say no if the year group is full. Op can appeal but there might be another child rock up with a ECHP or looked after or even get ahead on the waiting list because they move into the village first. The op hasn’t moved in yet!

One thing to note - because your younger child will have a place you will form a relationship with the school. This will definitely work in your favour. The head also indicated that there is likely to be places and you are top of the list. Officially a place cannot be given until a child is off role, so she may have heard that someone is leaving but can’t offer the place / doesn’t want to make a promise that she then has to go back on. Census day (which affects budgets) is the first Thursday of October. Sounds like the head is very budget conscious and I suspect will do everything she can to get your older child enrolled before this date. Good luck! I’m sure you’ll have success but appealing might not be best option.

The class is full. You would have to show why the disadvantages to the school and other children of the school going over PAN were significantly smaller than the disadvantage to your child of having to go to another school. "It's a better fit" doesn't cut it. Your child would have to be going to experience significantly more difficulties in education if they were not at this school.

@eish Top of the list now isn’t the same as the list at the end of term. If dc don’t leave until mid July, and op hasn’t moved and another dc turns up in the village, they get the place. It’s all about the admissions code, not hoping the head does you a favour. Obviously the head will fill the place before October, if there is one that materializes.