I Think 4+ Assessments Are Absolutely Bonkers!

[MissDaisy1982]

I’ve only recently discovered (via Mumsnet) that some schools have 7+ assessments. I thought that was unbelievable when I first heard about.

Even more recently I’ve learnt there are 4+ assessments

I was reading a thread where a lady’s 3 or 4 year old was assessed and rejected from an school where her two other elder DC attend

Am I alone in thinking assessing 3 and 4 year olds is just bonkers? And some parents are needing to prepare them for that assessment 12 months or more in advance.

Some countries like Finland don’t even send kids to school until they are 7

And I know kids that were breastfed until 3 years old. And others that were still potty training.

zero shade on parents doing this btw, absolutely no criticism whatsoever

I’m just shocked this is it seems a well established process

I presume the motivation behind it is based on the thinking: is good Uni, so good senior school, so good prep school, so happy to have a 4+ assessment.

of anyone could shed light on why this is a thing I’d be fascinated to hear it

also, am I alone in thinking this is bonkers?

Because more people apply than places, so rather than distance, they look at the child.

Because they aim to have calm, organised learning environments with little disruption.

Because some don’t want children with additional needs.

Basically, because they can admit who they want. And the people who apply want their child to be part of whatever particular ethos that school subscribes to.

If you don’t like it, don’t apply.

What type of school are you talking about- is it fee paying?

We’ve never done 4+, but 8+ with one of our children.

• the assessments talk about the child right now. not passing 4+ doesn’t mean nit passing 7+, 11+ etc. it just means that right now, its not the right school
• especially for children at the more extreme ends of the spectrum, these schools can be a blessing.my youngest is miles ahead academically, and bored. They are doing their best to stretch him, but he works at least 4 years ahead academically. There is a limit on what can be done in a classroom . he’ll start a selective school next year, where he hopefully can find a peer group.

Presumably you knew that fee-paying schools exist at this age, ie from reception up to sixth form, yes?

So if it is a high achieving school with a great reputation and many more applicants than places, how is the school meant to decide which children to offer places to without some sort of selective process?

I'm not saying I agree with it - my kids are all state educated. But saying "oh how shocking and awful that this is a thing" seems a bit of an overreaction.

Do you even know anything about the assessments themselves OP? I can only speak for our own school, but it wasn’t like a sit-down exam for 3-4 year olds with a year of prep needed in advance

Everything was play-based, whilst looking for evidence of the right attitude and aptitude towards learning, aligned to the school’s wider ethos. DS would have had no idea he was even being assessed for anything.

So assessment as such at 3 or 4 is only really a thing in the independent (private) sector.

however most preschools and nurseries are private organisations and lots of them will refuse to offer a place/ask a child to leave if their needs are much beyond the norm.

many children who have SEND really struggle to get preschool/nursery places.

independent schools in a way are just formalising the process. The children in question at age 3 or 4 won’t know they are being assessed.

my children were assessed at age 7. I think the point the school decided to admit them was when I said that my child was so enthusiastic about music he’d gone to a taster session for lessons at his school and signed up and we were very surprised when we got the bill as we knew nothing about it. He was 5 at the time.

the school only allowed two instruments to be learnt at school and I thought he’d be very upset about this (he was learning three) so I asked the head of music if he could break the rule and let him learn three but he said no, so my son did two in school and one out of school.

We haven't done 4+ ourselves but it is known to be far less 'reliable' as an assessment. It mainly identifies those who have been taught things e.g. writing their name, and weeds out those who can't yet sit still well. At least at 4+ (or 3+!) the children don't know they haven't made the grade, whereas they are more aware at 7+ and certainly at 11+.

The problem is schools are oversubscribed, so they can select by:
-' assessment

• first come, first served
• random
• distance,.but this isn't very common in private schools

None are ideal for different reasons, and so some focus on assessment as a way of selecting 'appropriate' children. When they are selective higher up the school, they will often get 4+ entrants to sit another test at 11 to keep their place, due to 4+ not being very reliable.

Fee paying schools who are oversubscribed have to either use a 4+ assessment or a random ballot (some do use the latter). They are both unfair in their own ways! In every area which has prep schools there will be ones which are less selective where you just go for a meeting and a 'chat' with them - basically so they can weed out kids with significant additional needs which they don't want to cater for/who can't follow any instructions at all.

4+ as others have said is not a very fair assessment - at that age you are testing compliance rather than intelligence - but what else can they do?

I understand why it is done but it’s effectively worthless as a predictor of anything. It screens the families more than anything. The claim is that it’s about making sure the child is suitable for the school, but it doesn’t even guarantee that. It might pick up major learning difficulties or behaviour problems, but children change rapidly at that age. After you exclude the really obvious issues you might as well pull names from a hat.

My children are privately educated and in the area we live in there are no 4+ or 7+ assessments

so yes it is completely alien to me

Is this a London thing?

Happens in lots of places outside London.

The Cambridge preps and pre-preps do it as well.

My son is 7 months old. We registered him for 4+ when he was 4 months old and went to look at schools when pregnant. I wasn't the only pregnant woman.

He is only going for 1 4+ assessment, if he doesn't get in, he will go to state school or another non selective prep, we will decide then.

There was no ‘taster session’ or anything before you were offered a place, they just let anyone join without seeing the children?

It's all part of the selective private school scam. Private schools cherry pick those with the most mature learning behaviours at 4, which suggests they will naturally achieve well at school. Those children do achieve well and produce good results for the school. Then the school can encourage more parents to pay for their child to attend their school, because they produce fantastic results. Then the cycle rolls over again and again, with people believing that free paying school is a must for their child, because they produce the best results.

It’s pretty well known that the 4+ process basically to make the parents feel good about their child if accepted, and an opportunity for the schools to weed out any problematic applicants (often on a discriminatory basis)

all British children start at 4 so I don’t really get your point about Finland- there is no evidence that starting school at 7 leads to better educational outcomes

How is this a scam? It’s literally people paying for something they want, solely through choice, and getting what they want.

That’s right.

just start in nursery and stay in until age 13

no assessments

The point is that we are assessing 3 and 4 year olds for ability whilst in Finland they are left to play until they are 7

not saying others better. But the difference in approach is vast

Wow.

are you in London?

They are not just left to play.

Finland is very like the Scandinavian countries.

firstly, a year of pre-school is now compulsory so they start at 6.

early years childcare is heavily subsidised and is well staffed by (mostly) trained professionals.

there is an early years curriculum just like we have the EYFS (early year and foundation stage curriculum).

They are decidedly NOT left to “just play”.

We’re not though are we? Only a tiny proportion of children do this, through parental choice.

its not that strange- I know a few children who attend standard school in the week then Greek/ polish/ Russian school Saturday. We are not forcing children into school 6 days a week just because this tiny number do it.

Yes. Nw london too but the school is in central london. But there is a non selective prep near me with no assessment that is less popular...most kids here go for multiple 4+ assessments though as they want an all through school. The likes of habs ucs highgate north london collegiate all very difficult to get in but its 4 till 18.

I am open to state secondary as I live in an area where the local comprehensive is a feeder to one of the best sixth form colleges in the country woodhouse college. So I will send to prep and see how it goes..

It's a way to screen out some SEN.

And then also a way to try to keep up the academic quality of the cohort so the school can later say how wonderful they are to get such good results later (ie getting kids to good secondary schools).

I worked in a private London school, as a 3-4 yr old teacher. I had pupils in for taster days. Whilst it wasn’t an official assessment, occasionally I would have a child who just couldn’t cope with the environment and required substantial adult attention. We then had to decide if as a school we could cater for their needs. That child could cost the school a TA salary and so (school had charity status) it wasn’t feasible. It wasn’t based on ability, but on ability to participate (as a 3 yr old) within a classroom.

Ok this makes sense

so it’s dressed up as an pseudo academic assessment but what they are really looking for is obvious signs of SEN, especially behaviour that will be disruptive/difficult to manage/time consuming

I understand why some schools would want to screen that out

ours didn’t at entry (nursery) but by age 9 vast majority of SEN had left for various reasons

the ones that remain are not properly supported