Higher achiever in state school

[Pandadream]

I wanted to find out what people’s experience and expectations around children who is talented / be able to do more than standard curriculum at primary state school. Would the school do more to challenge those or they would simply be treated as everyone else, if they are bored, then be it. If any school you have been to or heard did do more, what kind of things did they do?

In my experience if they are not given extra to do they will get into trouble - especially boys.

Schools should be stretching children who are more able, and there is an expectation on them to do so. And I'm sure that most schools do try to diffentiate appropriately, but the reality is that they simply don't have the resources now that they had when my dd was at primary school - so it would be a bit pointless for me to outline the kind of provision that they put in place for my dd because I just don't think that could happen any more.

Could it be the case that they are already differentiating?

My son is in reception and they are cohorted by ability for phonics and reading. The school don’t talk about it and we would have had no idea it was happening if some parents (who were unhappy about it) hadn’t discussed on the WhatsApp group.

My Dd was (is) super smart - I remember her teacher in yr 5 saying he would like to give her more work as she was clearly getting bored (she was) but he didn’t have the time - class of 34 kids, half of whom seemed to just piss about all day.
she just spent yrs 5 & 6 bored out of her mind, but to a grammar for secondary and was fine there as surrounded by lots of children like her.

I ended up moving our DC (Yr 3 and 5) in November from our local state primary school (1 form entry) to the local prep school because they were not stretching them or even seeing if they were at the exceeding level.

DD in year 5 was constantly at expected level throughout her time at the state school so I didn't think she would pass the 11+ but thought it would be good experience for her. She wanted to try so ended up going to a tuition group after school at the prep school which makes them take the InCAS assessment (to ensure they are able to keep up with the tuition) which showed she was exceeding in everything! That and her spelling homework the last few weeks were year 1 tricky words as some of the class didn't know how to spell 'our' or 'school' etc. It just showed me that the state school was just trying to get as many as they can to the expected level at SATS. They didn't even attempt the exceeding levels with children.

DS in year 3 has always been good at maths and they even said in reception they didn't know what to do with him because he could do basic times tables and add 3 digit numbers together in his head. Once again though he wasn't exceeding expected level until the end of year 2! His English wasn't exceeding but his school did KS2 SATS and he got 114!

I would have loved if the school had given different work for different abilities but mine DC just became mini teachers or just fading into the background. DD s state teacher commented that she was more vocal in class and giving opinions once she started tuition.

The school is small and has a higher than average number of SEN which I think impacts the teachers' ability to stretch those at the expected level.

In our experience it depends completely on the teacher. Some will really engage and others will do the minimum.
Find out whether your school do national assessments like NFER and where your child sits on those in terms of standardized scores. There is a massive difference between kids who JUST exceed (and who can often be stretched) and those who excel (and who are largely ignored). Those national tests will give you an idea of where your DC sits.

There's a big jump to KS2 from infants which some kids don't make. They may have been exceeding at KS1 but they level out. Then some kids just don't and continue to struggle with general classroom work in KS2.

People think it's brilliant to have bright kids but when you're having school refusal because they don't see the point and having meetings with the Head because they (correctly) told the supply teacher they were making mistakes. It's not as fun as it sounds.

Different primaries do it differently. All have a mandatory baseline assessment when entering primary and then each school or trust choose how to assess as they go through the years. Eg my school do phonics assessments every 6 weeks, end of unit maths assessments plus biannual maths assessments in ks1, then in ks2 tri annual assessments in English and maths alongside phonics for those who still need it every 6 weeks. In other schools they have an assessment week once a term from year 2.
the reason I mention this is because if I have a pupil tracking at greater depth at the start of the year these assessment points are one way to hold me accountable as their teacher to ensure all children are where they should be or making accelerated progress. So, if I wasn’t stretching a GD child in maths their grades would in theory slip.
alongside this is the practice of depth not breadth teaching/mastery approach, whereby every child is exposed to multiple variations of whatever learning we r doing and given the chance to do it in more depth (rather than saying child X can’t have access to a challenging worksheet because I’ve labelled them at working towards. ) The goal is everyone gets exposed to challenge, but some children will need more support than others. I’d say fifteen years ago teaching was more long the lines of “oh you’ve got it, let me give you a new bit of content to do” whereas now it’s “you’ve got it, let me give you the same learning in more depth to consolidate”

in short, yes, your and every child will be challenged at primary school and the teacher will be held accountable for it, but what that looks like may be more complex than whether or not the school sets for subjects.

eg I have some pupils in maths who are excellent at arithmetic but very rigid in their methodology, so for them a challenge in maths is to give them an open ended, explorative style question to expand their reasoning and help them better select methods. Whereas a child who isn’t secure in their times tables will find any question on division a challenge, so for them I’ll tailor a challenge to whichever times table I want them to master.
likewise in English I will challenge one pupil to rewrite their own sentence again and self edit for mistakes with a printed bullet point check list / challenge to rewrite it in a different tense, versus another child where I will write a simple sentence myself and ask them to spot my 3 mistakes because this will better support them in gaining the skill of editing and checking.

Like @JustMarriedBecca we found each year in primary different depending on the teacher (one form per year in DD's primary.)

I would suggest encouraging your DC to become a positive nuisance to the teacher. Encourage them to complete their work (as well as they can!) and then go up to the teacher and politely ask for more work, ideally something more challenging or open ended. If the teacher can't/won't provide anything, your DC can ask to read their book or offer to bring in a workbook. If this is happening every day, after a while you can request a conversation with the teacher. But in my experience it works much better if the child is the one doing the asking.

If the teacher asks them to help another struggling child, this is fine up to a point - embeds your own DC's learning to have to explain it in different ways. However, this should not be overused - it becomes awkward socially, as my DD found.

You can also encourage your DC to extend the learning themselves. Eg:

• I completed the maths questions and then I invented some more questions for myself using larger numbers, and answered them
• After I had written a sentence using each spelling word, I then tried to write a single sentence using as many of those words as possible

Hopefully the teacher will praise such endeavours which helps to encourage the child to keep striving for greater achievements.

I agree with others who suggest watching carefully for signs of disengagement. At that point, it's definitely worth asking for a conversation with the teacher.

I think that state schools are perfect for those who are strongly academic because they’re the ones who will do well anywhere. They don’t need all the extra help and small class sizes of public school.

I don’t think this is asking for the world.

@Pandadream Schools are expected to teach topics in greater depth . So the dc does more complexity of work within the topic. They don’t go racing ahead to more topics. Although some schools realise some dc need to but must dc aren’t that gifted. In class you would expect a lesson to be taught to all dc and then questioning and work set to reflect understanding. Do remember state school dc do get to the best universities. Parents and schools csn enrich learning.

My DCs were not challenged or stretched at all in primary. If they finished their work they were often asked to help the other children. I asked the school to give them work that suited their abilities, but the teachers were very fixated on ‘mastery’. I put workbooks in their bags, so they could do those when they had finished the work set in class. It is very frustrating, but understandable that the teacher concentrates on the children who are behind rather than ahead.
Secondary school has been much better, the top set moves fast, and the teachers always have extra challenges for the highest ability. DS is doing A level maths work in year 9, and they enter the students into national competitions etc. He is happier now, working at a speed that suits him.

Is DS exceeding all of his current objectives?
Was this the same in reception and year 1?
If not, that is the first thing you need to work on for school to consider your child to be gifted/talented.

Do not underestimate your DD, it sounds as though she is doing well too.
You may find that she has the transferable skills which make her more academically able.

I’m unsure whether you are typing quickly? Or using predictive text?
This is not a dig at you. We all do it.
A good place to begin would be using: want to in the home, rather than wanna. To give one example.
Use an extended vocabulary when speaking to (or writing for) both of your children. Encourage them to ask about, or look up, words they do not understand.

As it currently stands, 16 out of 40 marks in the largest English GCSE question (and GCSEs are where you are eventually aiming) are for SPaG.
If you model SPaG at home now it will definitely help.

Equally, SPaG is important in any written exam, including science.

For both children I would suggest that you buy them extended activity work books. If they are interested in them, sit with them and help them to use the books.

Are either of your DCs interested in LEGO?
The more advanced sets of LEGO are excellent for budding engineers. At this age though they should be encouraged to play.

Do your DCs learn instruments outside of school?
When taught to a high standard, DCs do not just learn music, they learn some Maths, Languages and other skills.

Team sports are good not simply for the physical benefits and fresh air. They are useful for spatial awareness and again, Maths.

None of these activities cost the earth and they will encourage your DCs to learn what they enjoy and where their strengths lie. They also teach independent learning, practical Maths, Language skills, team work etc, etc.

Schools are different. Some ‘excellent’ schools are terrible at Pastoral Care. Some ‘struggling’ schools have brilliant pastoral care but poor exam results.
Some schools manage to be good at everything, without excelling in any one area.

I cannot tell you what your DC’s school does well.

I can tell you that the highest achievers almost always come from families who gently encourage their children at home and give them a wide range of extracurricular opportunities.

The problem with tracking children and aiming for expected progress is that a child may start with underperformance (compared to potential) and then that becomes their ongoing target.

One of my DDs was "at expected" for maths and her teachers were happy with that. She was just so bored with the maths that she'd do the minimum she could get away with at school. If she hadn't been home schooled for covid, we wouldn't have known any better and wouldn't have questioned it.

My DS was a very high achiever in primary school. Unfortunately he wasn't stretched at all and became very bored from year 3 onwards. He is now in his first year at secondary and is finally being challenged.
I spoke to primary so many times about it, but nothing was ever done.

In m my childrens primary school each class did numeracy at the same time and again lanaguage at the same time and this enabled children to move between classes for lessons, ds is very able at anything numbers and it meant he could move into the older primary classes to do his maths work and children who needed more support stayed in their own classroom. Other children were moved for language to support their learning needs.

it was quite a small school , less than 100 pupils but it worked well.

I really wouldn’t go into a school and suggest that they prioritise giving higher attainers extra lessons (though I’d generally advise any parent not to tell a school how to teach anyway). There will be limited times e.g. during assemblies to do this, and most would focus on interventions for children struggling to meet expected standard.
If your school has seen falling academic standards, that will mean fewer children are meeting expectation at KS2 and that will be the priority to address, rather than appealing to prospective parents who want extra for their children -presumably they expect them to be ‘bright’-if they get a place.

this shouldn’t happen if coupled with the mastery approach and carefully planned next steps I have mentioned. I agree it can happen despite this, but would disagree that teachers don’t push pupils if they are making expected progress. I push all my learners based on the knowledge I have of them and celebrate their successes based on this as well.

Having been a school governor, I never met a teacher who was satisfied with expected if dc had previously got exceeding. Why would they be? I guess a school with poor assessment and data, but these days that should not happen. I was the maths governor and we certainly had dc working at greater depth and they maintained it with good teaching. Any child slipping would have been picked up. Teachers did an assessment every half term.

But did you have very capable children costing along "at expected", skipping from one year to the next without anyone realising they had more potential? How would the teachers even know to expect more? That's where we were.

@Sausagescanfly Because of detailed assessment and peer review of assessments, no. Almost certainly not. Our bigger issue was getting our not meeting expectations group over the line. We have grammars here so lots of dc are tutored. They won’t be hiding in plain sight in school if likely to get to a grammar. Rarely did we find meeting expectation dc getting to a grammar. I cannot remember one and plenty would have had tuition. I would be confident they were not being missed or overlooked but of course assessment is assessing on the NC, not other forms on intelligence.

Maybe the difference is not being in a grammar school area, or just the school itself. I was a governor at the time too. I was pretty concerned that other capable children, with less engaged parents, would never be noticed.

I certainly wouldn't assume that your experience as a governor is universal.

At my DD's primary school, the focus was always the children not meeting expectations. I do get that up to a point, if the choices are that child A leaves school able to read or child B leaves at greater depth, then you focus on child A. But if you are the parent of child B, it doesn't really work for you.

This was our experience at DC state school. The focus was always getting pupils to the expected level.
Although we are in a grammar area the nearest is over 15 miles away and there was never any discussion of taking 11+ so it is very much school specific.

Have you thought about parent involvement? Depends on school, but at ours a couple of us ran extension English and extension Maths for years 5 and 6 in smaller groups - 10 or so. And I "coached" their first maths team. But they were very up for parental involvement.

I think some of it is also learning behaviours and environment, most children do score better in assessments in a home setting where they can’t chat to their friends and it’s quiet, I’ve had parents evenings where parents have shown me far better scores at home than their child gets in school. As their teacher I have to base it on what I can see in my setting though, as I don’t know the level of parental help at home. On those occasions I have pushed the pupils further at school than I otherwise would have, but in school children are one of thirty and do have to be independent as well.

i see greater depth learners as not just results wise but also learning behaviours wise ie children who are intrinsically self motivated and choosing to explore challenges independently will become rapid graspers.
so for example I will have three challenges in a maths lesson that any child can choose to do once main tasks are completed, some children are capable of doing them but never will independently because they prefer to sit and chat. I counter this by choosing one of the three challenges to discuss as a whole class as the plenary of my lesson (mastery approach of everyone being exposed to it) but that is very much spoon fed to them step by step.
it is often a child who can be pushed 1:1 to achieve higher grades who won’t achieve in the same way in a whole class setting. Sometimes it’s because they have been overly coached and directed at home so lack the independence and resilience to have a go in school.
not always, and I appreciate this is in my school not every school.