Is this bullying? - long long long

[barnstaple]

This has been going on all year and dh and I are really really really fed up.
DD's class was divided differently this year and dd made friends with a girl who was 'new' to her. For a little while all was great but after a couple of months dd started coming home in tears saying they had had an argument and this girl was saying horrid things to her and sending other children with nasty messages etc. This could go on for a few days and then they'd be friends again. To be honest I wasn't that worried as kids are kids, they've got to get to know each other etc. so I just made a few gentle suggestions like don't listen, say "if it's a message from X I don't want to know", ignore her, blah. I asked why she wanted to be friends with her, and dd said she's really nice when she's not being horrid! After a while, though, it was getting silly. DD was constantly coming home in tears, she said she tried to ignore her and keep out of her way, but this girl was always following her and being horrid.

I go into school a few times a week anyway and help out a bit in class so I knew the situation hadn't escaped their teacher, and also had quite a few informal conversations with her about the pair of them. The trouble was, that underneath everything, they really did want to be friends. DH and I went in to have a proper chat with the teacher, who gave us to understand that we were not the only people having problems with this particular girl, but also that her parents were pretty fed up too. It was decided that we should keep reiterating that dd should keep away from her; apparently her parents were doing the same.

Anyway, the situation continued; they tried to keep away from each other but, as I said, they really wanted to be friends and found it very hard. About three months ago, it was decided finally that they should be kept separate in class and, as far as possible, at all other times too. The teacher explained to me that this child is not a 'bad' child, but has an aggressive manner and also anger issues, in that she has a very short fuse and will start screaming and shouting at the least provocation - her pencil falls off the table and it's somebody's fault. She has an individual behaviour programme (?) which has been reviewed quite a few times recently. I know she doesn't want to be like this, but she has said that her parents are very 'shouty' and always arguing.

Things went quiet for a while and dd kept away from her and she kept away from dd. About a month ago dh and I went to meet dd from school and got chatting with another parent. DD decided to go ahead (she is allowed to walk home on her own and sometimes does, sometimes one or both of us come to meet her) and we followed on slowly talking to this mum, parted company at the school gates, and found dd looking very miserable across the road. Apparently the girl had been hanging about just outside the school and when dd appeared grabbed her and gave her a chinese burn. She did the same thing two days later, and another three days after that she twisted dd's wrist quite badly so that she was in pain for a couple of days. DH rang the head after this third occasion and said he would be involving the police if it happened again. We had a long impromptu meeting the next morning with her class teacher who said they were having this child's parents in again, she would be kept in during breaks and other things would be reviewed (I assume this refers to stuff which is confidential and none of our business). Then it was half term.

They've been back not quite two weeks. This week, we got a phone call one lunchtime (we were out aaaaargh) saying there had been an incident but that it was being documented and dealt with. I saw the teacher who told me that the girl had been shouting at dd from across the playground because dd had been sitting with some girls that she wanted to sit with. Apparently some of the things she had been shouting "were really very unpleasant". DD was just sitting there crying. It has been decided that the girl should go home for lunch.

They had some sort of PE thing this afternoon. There was another big incident involving this child, but not dd; except dd has just told me that actually this girl had kicked her several times (wearing football boot - studded) and whispered really threateningly "if you tell of me, you're dead". DH and I will take her to school in the morning and tell her teacher that, on top of the rest of it today, dd was kicked and threatened.

DD had been enjoying school, but most of the time now she doesn't want to go. It's a nice school and she likes the teachers. To be honest, I liked the girl herself as well, and I feel so so so sorry for her. It is so sad that she reacts as she does, and I know that the reason dd has tried so hard to be friends is because she knows that, apart from this she's nice girl who is badly in need of kindness and understanding. In the early days, when she was allowed to come round to us, she was quite open about her behaviour and said that she didn't want to be like that. Her parents stopped allowing her to come round to us at a fairly early stage in all this, and the teacher did say that they complained about dd but that was in the first few months. More recently she's been at pains to make it clear that our dd has been completely innocent in any incidents, just bearing the brunt of the anger.

It just hit me today, that this has been going on since the beginning of year 4 and it's nearly over.

So, we've talked to her teacher, we've talked on the phone to the head. Things seem to be escalating. I am really sad that dd is being subjected to this and at a loss as to what to do next. I also feel terrible about the other girl; what on earth effect is this having on her - every time someone complains about her, (and I know we're not the only ones) the school drag her parents in who are shouty and argumentative anyway (and believe me her dad is scary) and what happens to her? And now she has to go home for lunch as well. And what sort of life is this child living? It's almost too horrid to imagine (I know there are worse).

DH wants the poor thing expelled and in a way, so do I - it would solve the whole thing really easily - for us, that is. I dread to think what might happen to her. Anyway, I said I'd ask what the criteria are for exclusion, so if anyone's got this far and knows the answer to that, please tell me.

If anyone has any advice it will be gratefully received.

It's really hard to get a child expelled these days and I doubt they'd do it unless she'd seriously hurt another child.

I would ask to see the school's anti-bullying policy. It does sound like bullying, but you mention that other parents have complained as well so it is clearly not just directed at your dd. Has the school called in the Education Psychologist? What other outside help have they asked for? There are a number of routes they could take and you don't mention (presumably because you don't know) if they've tried any of these. Is the school just trying to keep everything "in-house"? Because if they are and it clearly isn't working, they are being idiots. The child obviously needs help that the school does not appear to be providing.

If you're not satisfied with the school's response, you might want to formalise things by going through the school's grievance procedure (which should be available from their office or website).

AFAIK, exclusion criteria are set by each school or LEA. As Freckle says, fixed term exclusions are generally where a child has caused serious harm to another. You can't demand that the other child is excluded temporarily or permanently, but you're entitled (I think) to assurances that appropriate measures are being taken to address her problems and needs and that the school is alert to the effects on other children of her behaviour.

Hope this makes sense. The first (and more coherent) version of this just vanished into the MN ether.

the thing is clearly this other child has issues and tbh we are only hearing your version so school will be using strategies to help both girls- possibly to the outside eye it would look like the other child has had several 'chances' Ive dealt with lots of bullying in school both personlly with my own children and professionally as a nursery nurse in the school and i cn pretty much say i doubt the child will be expelled i think without having a go at you theres info that youve been told that i dont think you should be aware of classroom helper or not.

I cant understand why the girl is being left and is able to harass your dd ourpln of action has always involved close supervision and distraction to a great extent so i think school should be a bit 'tighter' on that i dont like the fact you were telephoned mid day and then only told half a story that imo blows it out of proportion.

an excellent piece of advice i heard on mumsnet by some wise mother was to tell your dd to say in a super loud voice when the girl comesnear her 'go away dont bother me' and i can see this might scre a potential bully off.

your next step would be to write to the chir of the governors but generally they do in my experience side with the heads opinion.

Thanks. I must admit that I don't really want her expelled - it's just a quick solution for us and I do think this child needs a lot more help than ours does iyswim.

I'm not surprised that exclusion would really need to be in response to something much more serious and really hope she doesn't get to that point. I wouldn't have the heart to ask for her expulsion anyway - I feel too sorry for her.

We have said to dd that she should scream loudly if the girl hurts her, but she doesn't do it; she can't say why, I suspect she's too scared to think about it, and I hate that and that's when I think dh is right, she's a little bitch and should be expelled. But I don't really think that. However, the loud voice before there's any trouble is a good idea and I will press for that.

You're also right in that I think there may be things I know which I shouldn't, but most of them have come from the child herself - she is/was very open about herself and her behaviour when the pair of them first teamed up and she was coming round here. I think an Ed Psych might be involved but I can't remember exactly what she (the girl) has said; the teacher hasn't mentioned it.

When we first approached the teacher about this, she said it wasn't actually bullying, and I think she was probably right at the time. I did think that it most likely would be classed as such now, but wanted an outside view of it, I don't want to make mistaken accusations there's too much going on already. I have to do something to improve things for dd though. DH and I are like chalk and cheese in this sort of thing - he immediately jumps to worst case scenario while I lag back and overcompensate. Neither stance helps dd.

If she has SEN, the school will not be able to exclude her. However, they can start excluding her if she is in the process of being statemented.

It sounds like she may have SEN.

As far as I know she has no SEN, she just comes from a family who are very aggressive, shout a lot, have lot of arguments. Poor old dd, now she's had a while to take in what happened on Tuesday she's become really scared - she saw what this girl is capable of, and knows she herself bears the brunt of it. We didn't send her to school today, but rang up and said why (dd's too scared to come to school miss!) and are waiting to have a meeting with the head tomorrow.

(What happened on Tuesday was that the girl beat up another child on the playing field; other kids were trying to stop her but no one could and eventually some of them just grabbed the beaten child and dragged him away as the teachers got involved.)

Yes, she is bullying your dd verbally and physically and by the sound of it a host of other children. It's very unusual to exclude at primary level - if this were secondary she probably would have a fixed term exclusion. She'll probably be on the SEN school action for EBD (educational and behavioural difficulties) and the school should push for statementing as it often attracts more funding to pay for the close support she needs

You've been very fair and balanced in your assessment of the circumstances and more than fair to the other girl. The pp is right about trying to arm your child with the right tactics. I taught ds to say loudly at nursery to a biter "No XX that's naughty" to draw attention to himself and to immediately tell the nearest adult.

The attack on the boy may well have escalated things anyway. But sometimes a school only gets a sense of the scale of the problem when parental concern mounts. Certainly formalise your concerns in writing to the Head & Governors.