DS4 struggling with word memory

[Moo313131]

DS4 is struggling to remember words that he has sounded out eg on a previous page. For example tonight's book was The Pancake. The word pancake was in the title. We broke it down and sounded it out. He got pancake. I then asked him so what is the title? He couldn't remember the word pancake and had to sound it out again. The word pancake was then on page 6 and again he had to sound it out. It was then on the next page ("the pancake race") - he had no recognition of the word from the previous 2 times.

In total there are 18 words including the title. 8 of the words are "the" - he was fine with these. 3 of the words are pancake.

We have been asked to read the book twice each night. DH just sat down with DS to do it again and he had to sound out pancake on the front page again!

Is this just something that will take time? Or is there anything we can do to make this easier and help him?

He is 4, it is hard. It will just take time.

It's probably a good thing in a way, as at least you know he is actually reading the words rather than just memorising the way they look.

Sounds fine, it’s a long word and he’s only 4. Also I think the expectation is that they should be sounding words out, unless it’s common exception word. I wouldn’t be concerned.

My DD is 5 in reception and would do the same. It’s a long word to have full sight recognition of after only sounding it out once or twice.

Always fun when on side of a double page spread you have, "Pip had a red hat" and "Pip had a green hat" and they act like they've never encountered the words before... I think its normal!

That's completely normal when they first begin to read.

I'm curious about your son's reading book though it doesn't sound appropriate for the phonics they will have learnt so far and he's probably finding it extra challenging because the book isn't one he can decode independently.

I too am curious as to why he is being given such an outdated none-decodable book at age 4?

I'm very familiar with the book from when I started teaching in Reception over 15 years ago. It's a level 1 Oxford Reading Tree book (Biff, Chip and Kipper) from the old 'pink band', right? The flour, the eggs, the milk, the pan, the pancake, the pancake race. Yawn. I remember those books inside out and was so releaved when schools were asked to move away from none-decodable texts.

Schools should not be sending home books with words the children cannot decode independently anymore, and this has been the case for many many years now (from memory, going on nearly 10 years). Ofsted will slaughter them for this. The fact it is not decodable is the main reason your son cannot read the book. I wouldn't worry about 'word memory' as such, as he shouldn't just be memorising the all words (as many children did, back in the day). It's not an effective strategy. Even children who have memorised pancake by the end of the book would not be able to read it if you showed it to them on a flash card, with no picture clue. Pancake is a polysyllabic word with a split digraph and is definitely not the type of word he would be taught to read in phonics in Reception. The books he takes home should reflect his phonic ability, in that he should be able to decode every word.

I would definitely query this with the school. Point out that his reading book is none-decodable and he is struggling with it. Request he has a decodable reading book which he can attempt to read independently. See what they say.

Who is giving him a book with a split diagraph at 4? Which phonics programme is he following? The word ‘the’ isn’t decodable so he couldn’t have sounded it out.

Going back to your actual concern about him not retaining a word he has just read, it's actually a really common age appropriate problem and is linked to focus. It's usually something most children naturally grow out of, with practise.

It's the same in maths. So many children will count how many objects they have, but as soon as they've said the last number and you say "so how many have you got?" they can't remember. It's because they're not focusing. They are simply reeling off numbers in order without realising that they need to tune in an listen to themselves because that last number they say actually represents how many are in the set (cardinality).

Likewise, when sounding out a word, many children they are simply going through a formulaic process of saying sounds and blending to hear a word, to begin with. The second they have said the word it has gone from their memory. That's because they haven't yet reached the stage where they realise words carry meaning and that word they just blended to say is actually what the word on the paper says. It will come with daily practise, but it's such a common developmental phase for a new reader so please don't worry.

Pretty sure it’s a Biff Chip and Kipper.

I’m wondering who thinks this is an appropriate book for the child to read.

It is a biff chip and kipper book but it's not an appropriate book for a 4 year old new to phonics.

Is he your fourth child @Moo313131 or is he four years old?

He is 4 years old - he was 4 at the end of June so is young for his year. He's our 2nd child so I have been able to tell him about the Magic E to help him sound out "cake". We are in Northern Ireland so our curriculum and Ofsted equivalent are likely 10 years behind!. They are doing Jolly Phonics and yes its a Biff Chip and Kipper stage 1 as many of you have said!

Thank you all for all the replies - really helpful.

If this is typical of schools in Northern Ireland and his school will continue to send home books that he won't be able to read I would honestly just buy him some phonics books he can decode and read those instead.

He is very unlikely to enjoy reading if he is continually expected to read books with words he can't decode. It would probably also be beneficial to your older child too, do they enjoy reading?

Older child is now a fluent reader and loves reading (a mixture - dog man / horrid henry / football books / david walliams). He is 8 and in P4. His reading books for school are now novels with 8-12 chapters which he has no problem reading.

We read to younger DS every night and occasionally to older DS (he prefers to read himself now) and visit the library regularly - hopefully this will stand younger DS in good stead as it has done for older DS.

I picked up some stage 1 books in the library (I am not sure what scheme but they were "pink" level) - I didn't take them out as they were similar re split diagraphs and tricky words (eg house).

Can anyone recommend any better books I could buy for younger DS?

Thank you all for the replies - I really appreciate it.

I'm pleased your eldest enjoys reading despite a lack of appropriate books for his level when he was initially learning to read.

I would recommend bug club, big cat phonics books, songbirds (written by Julia Donaldson), project X and RWI books.

I would also suggest looking at sites such as Oxford owl which allow you to read the books online. It will give your son a feel for which ones he enjoys and show you that there are indeed lots of great decodable books out there.

There are many other skills involved in learning to read/reading, as well as decoding phonics. In my very long, extensive experience of teaching reading, including to adults with dyslexia, i have found that the best readers use a mixture of skills to decode unfamiliar words but recognise the shape of words that they know well. It sounds to me as if this child needs someone to talk to him more about the pictures and what is happening in the story, rather than learning to 'bark at print'. He needs to grow up understanding that he is reading for knowledge, it's not a party trick.

OP, the way to deal with this is to ask him to look first at the book cover, talk about the illustrations what can he see? A pancake? Can he see a word beginning with P in the title? Now can he find the same word in the pages? How many times can he spot the word? You can do the same with other words, let him know that when you recognise a word, you dont need to sound it out.

What does decodeable and non decodeable mean in this context, please? Does it mean the words can be worked out from the pictures?

Thank you. He has had Biff Chip and Kipper picture books home up to now that we have looked at the pictures, chatted about what's happening / what might happen next / why do you think that happened etc. While we did discuss the pictures in the pancake book, in hindsight, with this week being his first books with words, I was probably too focused on him reading the words and didn't spend as much time on the pictures. Your suggestion is helpful to look at the pictures, decide what is happening and then at the words.

I think decodeable is easily sounded out words while non decodeable are words which follow different rules eg cat is decodable but cake is not as it has the split diagraph.

No, it's not to do with the pictures. It's based on a child's phonic knowledge. Are they able to break the word down in to the single sounds, and blend those sounds together to independently read the word?

Technically, all words are decodable once the child has learned the code. The word pancake IS decodable for a child in Year 1/2 who has been taught to read polysyllabic words and words with split digraphs (the old 'magic e', a_e represents an ay sound). However, in England it is no longer acceptable to give children books containing words which they cannot yet decode ('non-decodable', for the purpose of the conversation, as in the can't decode it yet).

Common none-decodable words such as 'the', 'he', 'to', 'was', 'my' etc, which come up frequently in texts at levels long before the children have been taught the code to break them down are called 'tricky words' in most phonics schemes. They are taught by sight, in a flash card technique. The children are simply told 'you can't sound this word out yet but it says '. It's fine for adults to read the tricky words to the child if they're unsure, as we're not expecting them to decode them, but through frequent exposure the children begin to recognise and remember them. You'd expect a few high-frequency 'tricky words' throughout each book, but they should no longer contain multiple topics words containing sounds the child has not yet been taught to decode (such as flour, pancake, race etc). Not being able to decode most of the words in the book can be very off-putting for a new reader (or anyone, even an adult would be greatly put off reading a textbook which perhaps contained multiple scientific words above their own natural vocabulary and too complex for them to be able to decode).

I see the OP is in Northern Ireland, where they're obviously still using the old approach where children learn to read by using the picture clues. That worked for some children, but research shows this approach is not the most effective.

Decodeable means that you can use your phonics knowledge to sound out the words. Technically, all words are decodeable as the letter(s) in the word will map to a sound, but when children start learning to read they may be given some words they don’t yet have the phonic knowledge to decode so they will learn those words. “The” is a good example of this - it is decodable (th + a schwa vowel sound for e (rather than the usual “e” sound)) but as children won’t initially learn the alternative sound for “e”, they just learn the word as a whole. In a good scheme, the only “exception” words will be high frequency words like “the” that you really can’t avoid.

Since the Rose Report recommended phonics as the approach for teaching reading, children ought to be given decodable readers so that the books they are reading are matched to their phonics knowledge because the purpose of the book is to practice their level of phonics until confident.

If your school are teaching phonics but are sending home the old ORT books, then I’m not surprised you are having problems - I had similar issues with my DC as that was the approach their school used over a decade ago (even though this was after the Rose Report so they ought to have known better - as @BoleynMemories13says Ofsted has now caught up with those schools). What it led to for us was a lot of random guessing from pictures, which really didn’t work, & a reluctance to rely on phonics even with decodable words. It wasn’t pleasant for the DC or me.

What worked for us was finding out about how phonics should be taught (thankfully there were some wonderful MN posters including teachers who shared their knowledge on that) & buying a scheme of phonics books (we bought Jelly & Bean due to MN recommendations & it worked really well & had pictures of cute cats but there might be more modern alternatives). Initially, I hadn’t intended to buy the scheme, but it was absolutely transformational both for DC1’s progress in & enjoyment of reading. It could also have been avoided if his teachers had been more like @BoleynMemories13(they were actually fine at teaching phonics but for some reason really didn’t want to update their home readers).

I should also say that not every DC in our school found it difficult to read - some DC pick up reading quickly so could cope with the books, but if your DC (like mine) need more practice in sounding out the words, then they do need a solid phonics scheme.

Apologies to @BoleynMemories13for cross-post!
(It wasn’t there when I started to type).

No apologies necessary. You shared some great advice yourself, too👍🏼