Primary school dilemma

[helpschooldilemma]

I’m really struggling to make a decision on which school to put first on my daughter’s primary school application, so hoping for some hive mind advice.

I have two schools I can’t decide between.

School 1 - 500m from my house, Catholic school (I’m a practicing Catholic and meet required religious criteria), excellent ofsted, really good academic results, slightly longer wraparound hours but stricter, less friendly feel, heard there is poor parent communication and I didn’t really get a good vibe from the headteacher.

School 2 - just under a mile from home - in some previous years would have been out of catchment, good ofsted but slightly worse academic results, slightly shorter wraparound hours but had a really friendly, welcoming feel, offers continuous provision transition throughout year 1, good parent comms tools and I really liked the headteacher.

Both are oversubscribed so if I don’t get in to one as first choice, I won’t get in to the other as second choice. My daughter seems to be fairly bright, so hopefully she’ll do ok at either school. She will also be going to the local Catholic secondary school - classmates from school 2 would be unlikely to go to same one if that makes a difference.

Should the academics and practicalities of local school 1 outweigh the better feel of school 2?

Thanks for reading!

Both are oversubscribed so if I don’t get in to one as first choice, I won’t get in to the other as second choice.

That's not how it works! Whether you put them first or second doesn't affect the allocation - this only kicks in if you qualify for a place at both, and you will then be offered the one you gave the highest preference to.

Do you really not have a preference between the two at all?

Maybe my wording isn’t very clear, I’ve been told that if I don’t put either as first choice, I wouldn’t get a place as they allocate all places at the school to people who select the school as first preference. Last year’s council data backs that up - places were only allocated to those who put either school as first preference. Other local schools are undersubscribed so would def be offered a place at those at second or even third preference.

And there were definite pros and cons to both schools. I guess I would sum it up as academics / practicalities better for school 1, but better feel for school 2. Just not sure which should be more important…

That's not true, though. Or at least, it's not because they put that school as first preference. The applications are considered without reference to preference rankings.

Thanks, that’s good to know!

That’s just not true OP. It may be that in previous years all places were filled by first choice prefs – but that’s coincidence that the people who lived closest (taking that as the simplest criterion – I realise with a faith school there will be other factors in fact) listed it as first pref.

If you prefer the further away school, list it first. (It sounds to me as tho you do). You will not in any way jeopardise a possible place at the Catholic school. If you would have got a place at the Catholic school if listing it first (sounds as tho you would with the distance + faith) then you will be offered that place if you list it second unless you are offered a place at your first choice (bc that is presumably the one you prefer).

In other words, allocation is blind to where you list the school. This is why, if someone is not a massive fan of their mega-local school across the road, and thus lists it last on their form, they will (if they miss out on their higher prefs) leapfrog someone who listed it first but lives two miles away.

Does that make sense?

So which school did you genuinely prefer? Try tossing a coin - headS catholic, tails further away one - if you really cannot decide. Then list your favourite one one first, the other one second, and then fill in the slots with the best of the rest, being sure to include the most local school to you (if that's not the Catholic one) – as if you don't, you do risk being allocated none of your prefs (possible tho sounds unlikely for you) and instead an unpopular school miles away.

ETA: Who told you they allocated to first prefs first? It annoys me how many peopel who work in schools don’t know how the system works.

@clary thanks, that’s helpful. It was actually headteachers at various school tours who said to put the schools first preferences or you won’t get a place there. And when I looked at council data, no one who placed the schools below first preference were offered places at the schools so assumed they were right.

I genuinely go back and forth every day, so may well come down to a coin toss on submission day. I have third and fourth preferences sorted though 😊

I knew it would be the head teachers.

Of course if they say that every year, then all the people who live really near will list that school first and get it. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. But I promise you that if you list school A (further away) first and don't get it, you’ll get closer school B.

Where I live there is (secondary) school G, vv popular in nearby village, school C, also popular, in city centre, (both of these two are outside our catchment) and school W, in our suburb, very local. I know a number of people who listed 1. G, 2. C, 3. W. And even tho school W (tho less popular) is very over-subscribed (with people from away trying to avoid hideous schools X Y and Z elsewhere in town and who obviously list School W first) all the locals who listed W third and were not offered their “shoot for the moon” choices G and C, were offered school W.

There will be countless number of would disagree with me but as you know, with faith schools, you have to jump through hoops to get in. And parents who don’t engage with education or don’t see the value of it, by extension, don’t jump through the hoops. So, religion aside, your child typically ends up in a cohort who have parents who are engaged and active in their child’s education journey. Which makes for a much better learning experience, and far fewer children with behavioural issues. So not surprising that the academic results are good. Doesn’t mean the school or its teachers are any better. But when you’ve got parents who care, and get involved in the community side of things, which is generally quite strong in faith schools - fund raising etc - results are typically, better, irrespective of teaching per se.

But I promise you that if you list school A (further away) first and don't get it, you’ll get closer school B.

Quoting myself here! of course I mean - you’ll get closer school B if you would have got it if you listed it first. Hope that makes sense!

What do you need @helpschooldilemma ?

The longer hours for wrap around care is irrelevant if you or your dh is a SAHP, but is pretty crucial if you both WOTH with a long commute.

Personally, I would always put a LOT of store in the benefits of going to the closest school, but a mile isn't an unreasonable distance to travel. However, does that make the difference between walking and driving there? Is it 'on the way' to work / the station / wherever one of you is going, or in the opposite direction ?

All that said, from your description, I get the impression you really preferred the school that is further away and are looking to check with us if it is 'allowed' to prefer a school that perhaps isn't as rigorous academically as another option. Do remember though, that is about statistics and percentages, and does not mean that your dc will "do better academically" at the first school rather than the 2nd. With your support they are likely to do as well at either.

Thanks @clary

@CotswoldsCamilla that’s an interesting take that I hadn’t considered, thanks.

@RecordBreakersThanks for your comments. I’m a solo parent with a younger child at nursery a 15 minute drive from either school. I will be reliant on wraparound three days a week. From that perspective, the further away school would add 10-15 minutes to morning journeys.

It sounds like you feel School 2 may be a better fit for your child. Being local is a huge plus, but that welcoming friendly vibe is also very important and, at less than a mile away, School 2 isn't exactly 'not local' either.

I'd put School 2 first choice, School 1 second. That way it's kind of win win as you may get lucky and get your preferred choice, but if you don't you know you'll also be happy with School 1 which has lots of positives too. Living that locally to it, I'd be amazed if you didn't get into School 1 on distance even if you don't meet the criteria for School 2.

As you've already been told, all applications hold equal weighting no matter where you place them. You're stating a preference, but your application for School 1 will be judged against the criteria the same as anyone who puts it first. That would not give them priority, it's not how it works. If you live closer and they don't have siblings or an EHCP (basically anything which would potentially rank them higher), you will be offered the place even if you put it second and they put it first. If you meet the criteria for your first choice school you'll be offered it. If you don't, they'll offer you your next highest choice where you do meet the criteria, even if that means people who put it as first choice do not get it.

It's really cheeky of the headteachers to lie and tell you you must put the school first choice to get it. That is not how it works at all (but will work in their favour if they tell that to enough people who don't understand the system and they believe them). If they tell people to put them first and they live close enough to be offered a place, of course they'll all get the place and the data will be skewed. In reality, someone living next door to the school would have still got in as a 3rd choice preference if they'd ranked 2 schools higher which were also oversubscribed and they didn't get into, as would outrank all those first choice preferences on distance.

I hope that makes sense?

Thanks @BoleynMemories13 - that’s really helpful

School 2 sounds like a much nicer place for your child to spend her days, and their choice to have CP into year one would give me a good impression of their ethos.

On allocation - our experiences in our area have been - you are very unlikely to get second choice if it is an over subscribed school (because it's full from those who listed it as their 1st choice). So I would advise to think carefully about what you put for 1st choice.

What was the vibe from the Catholic headteacher?

Given that you're a working single parent to two children I would put quite a lot of weight on proximity and wrap around care. That said, we turned down a place at a local Catholic school (also with amazing results and excellent Ofsted) because the headteacher just seemed like an awful person (!) so I can definitely see why you are torn!

That's not how it works as numerous people have pointed out. If you are higher up the priority list (usually = live closer) than someone who listed it first, even if you listed it sixth, you leapfrog them (unless you are offered a school you listed higher).

Also, think about what would suit your daughter specifically. Is she older or younger in the year (if younger then extended continuous provision is more important imo). Does she struggle with rules and structure of thrive with it?

For a reception class child, I would always choose the school that gives you the better feel. School starters need to feel safe, secure and comfortable in order to make the most of learning opportunities. As for secondary school, I imagine DD will know the cohort from Church, even if she doesn't go to the Catholic school.

Your religious views do need to come as part of your decision. How closely aligned are your practicing views to that of the school? I do not mean to cause offense here but I don't know much about being Catholic, are there any strong values you hold that the school also hold? Perhaps there are some you don't wish to push your DD towards but the school have strong views on?
I am not of a religion, however my youngest DC does attend a religious school (first choice) which is 20 miles away from our house so completely out of catchment area as well.
My other DC attend a different school, I moved them in Year 2 because their first school were very focused of academics, as long as they were performing academically they had little interest in anything else. Unfortunately my DC struggled socially and was just not that happy overall, since moving to a 'less' academic school their academics have actually improved and so has their overall happiness and socially thrived too.
Also a point on your post about the Catholic secondary school, I wouldn't use this to feed your decision primarily, as friendship groups take a huge shift when they move to secondary anyway. Best friends may be split into different classes, there are children from other schools too so a whole different mix of kids and social mixtures anyway.

Toss a coin if you really can't choose, but do it several days in a row so your really sure your pleased. Nothing like last minute panic when it comes to submission to make you doubt yourself even when your certain.

What are the sibling policies for both schools.

I would go with the closer school that has wrap around care. Wraparound is invaluable and local means likelihood of local friends is higher. At some point your youngest will join, your eldest will be able to walk home alone in year 6 etc.

Don’t worry too much about the head; the teacher is the important person who engages with your child.

This! Exactly what I was coming on to say. It's preference not choice which makes sense difference.

This is totally untrue. That's not how it works.

Everyone who applies, regardless of preference position, is ranked according to how they meet the admission criteria (so someone who ranked it 3rd could actually originally be 18th on the list). They then remove anyone who meets the criteria to be offered a space at a school they ranked higher (as they don't require the place, since they are being offered a place at a school they prefer). Everyone left (so those who ranked it first or did not make the PAN of their first/second etc place preference) is bumped up accordingly. If the list they are left with is shorter than the amount of spaces that school can offer (PAN), everyone who wanted a space gets one. If the list is longer than PAN, the school is oversubscribed and some people miss out on that school. They will be offered a space at their nearest preference school for which they meet the criteria ahead of other people who applied. If they don't meet the criteria of any of their preference schools ahead of the other applicants (regardless of where they placed the school preference wise), they will be offered a place at the nearest school with space (an under subscribed school).

Preference order does not affect your ability to gain a space.

Put school 2 first for the Y1 continuous provision. I hate seeing 5 year olds sat at desks all day (as a supply teacher).

You have been misinformed about the order of preferences - schools do not see this, they just get told who has applied. Schools report back who they can take in order, so nut just the 30/60 places, but thereafter as some of those closest may not have the school as their first choice. Then the LA shakes this down into preferences and offers (eg your first preference said no, but your second said yes, so you would be offered your second preference).

After the initial offers and acceptances, there is another shakedown and waiting list places start to appear. You are automatically kept on the waiting list for schools higher up your preference than the one you were offered.

And please, use all six options including those schools that are close and OKish. If the LA cannot find you a place at any of your preferences (usually because parents have only put two schools down), then they can allocate you a place at any undersubscribed school.