Teachers! You know that glazed over expression you get when a bolshy middle class parent says 'Do you think my child might be bored...?'

[WilfSell]

Is there a third way, dya think?

Is there a way out of 'no, I know best...', 'er, no, I think you'll find ^I' know best...' toing and froing between us?

Before we kick off on this one, let me just say how much respect I have for the professionalism of teachers. And the background is my kid, who IS very bright, who IS achieving beyond year 6 maths in year 4 SATS and who has consistently, thoughout school, been in a group with the same peers who were all achieving really good outcomes.

Last year, the teacher moved them around based on different subjects (one ability group for numeracy, another for literacy etc) My son was in pretty much the same, high achieving group for everything.

This year, new teacher. This teacher has put them in one group for everything based on literacy outcomes in last year's SATs.

My son reads and understands phenomenally well. He is currently reading Northern Lights. However, he writes very slowly and makes mistakes because he can't keep up with his brain.

So he tells me (when he's quite capable of working out percentages, understanding geometry and algebra blah blah) that this week they've been doing simple addition (eg 5+6=11 and 24+11=35)

I have been, frankly, pissed off with the labelling of my son from the start of this year and mentioned it to the teacher who did, indeed, glaze over.

My son's literacy SATs got worse when they did the dummy ones in May. He is much less settled at school this year than previous ones...

OK, I'm being all PFB here but he's a 9 year old boy, on the cusp of either being inspired by school because his actual talents are being appreciated, or being switched off, because someone has decided because he isn't as quick at one bit, he can't be stretched in the other bits either. School from here on in doesn't always do great things for boys, since there's such a strong culture of rejecting learning... I don't need his confidence knocked when he doesn't deserve it and god, yes I want him back working with kids and on things that actually test him.

How do I deal with this at parents evening or am I just being an arse?

speak to the teacher (again) if you get nowhere go to the head.

do they not have extra maths/english at the school for the "g&t"

deal with it. in person, one on one (two) with the head and the teacher.
it means a lot. you are entitled to thrash it out and receive explanations for things.
partents eve not a great time to do it as they have like, 5 min slots for each parent, no? too many other things to think about (for them) your son deserves a dedicated 3 way meeting. imo.

Thanks. Are these your opinions as teachers or parents? I'm asking genuinely because I really feel like the barriers are up between me and Mr X, even though I'm as nice and straight as I can be with him. I didn't say wotchewdoing labelling my son a thicko or anything. But I did ask whether he was getting challenged enough in maths given that he was working with a group who were not operating at the same level.

I don't think that is an unreasonable question, is it? And is it unreasonable to ask the school to answer some of the question about why he is slipping in literacy when he's clearly able in some ways?

I do want to go in and talk to them about it but am worried the bigger fuss I stir up, the more labelled he will become (PFB-mother doesn't know her kid is just a PITA etc)

I do know he is a PITA for what it's worth... he's difficult to handle, attention seeking, shouts out in class, always wants to be first with everything and doesn't handle himself well in some situations when he can't be. But through the years he was getting better on this with sensitive handling and - crucially - the more responsibility and intellectual challenge he was given at school, the more sociable and compliant he became. And we're not talking about chair throwing in any case: he just shouts out the answers to the maths questions and then gets told off by the teacher because 'some other kids who do it more slowly need more time to think'. Fair enough. But give him some blardy difficult maths to shut him up I say...

So, a three way with the head? Really?

I'm a parent of a younger child.

As far as I am able to comment, a child needs to be able to read, write and comprehend in order to access the whole curriculum. And responding to the teacher is very important imo, no matter what the ability level is.

Being talented at maths (or any one subject) is not the whole picture (even though that talent should be encouraged).

I do agree Mercy, and I do also think his socialisation (good manners, turn taking etc) are incredibly important if he's to get on in life.

But I just despair a bit when I read in his book from the teacher 'How you write is more important than what you write'. I speak as a university lecturer who constantly marks work: I completely understand that being part of a group and making yourself understood in writing is crucial for learning.

But I wouldn't dream of writing such a comment on a student's work: because it is patently untrue...

Oh god, I have got my knickers in a twist on this...

"How you write is more important that what you write"?!!!?? No wonder you are despairing. Poor handwriting is practically a diagnostic criterion for very bright boys (mahoosive generalisation, but you know what I mean...)

Sorry, have no practical advice. Suggesting your child might be bored is clearly a red rag to a bull in many cases. How did the teacher respond to your direct question about whether he was being challenged in maths?

doesn't sound a brilliant idea to put them in groups solely according to literacy - what about any dyslexic students for a start? I don't know what the solution is, but you are right to be concerned

I do agree with you on that point actually. I know my dd is younger (she is 7) but her teacher's view is that it's what you write that counts - how you write can be improved!

any more teachers able to advise?

I did stick up for you VERY much during the dispute [grin}

wilf get him a scholarship and get him out of there

I'm not a teacher, but I think children should be separated into ability groups for each subject rather than just top set for everything.

Did the how you write refer to handwriting or did she mean spelling, grammar and style of writing?

I write in my year 5 books all the time "Please try to be neat - this is important so that other people can read and perform your compositions." I always make extra copies of the worksheets available so that students who have fast brains and sloppy writing can get their ideas down first and then spend the rest of the time making them readable in their workbook.

I feel that by giving a reason for neatness that hints at social acceptance (they love group composing and performing more than anything) I am more likely to get a result. Saying "how you write" is important is a bit of a crap comment really. Says who? Just that one teacher? The whole world?

Ds is currently massively under using his maths skills. But as a teacher I can see that his excellent teacher is spending all the time and energy on his printing, spelling and writing and that is paying massive dividends. The crucial difference from your son is that he is enjoying it - and it's first year at school so he really has no idea that the maths could be harder at school.

My usual response to "he's bored" is to suggest that we work together to make the bits a student is weak at more interesting (ie more like the bits they like).

One boy was terrible at sightreading and his writing was awful so I got him composing pieces - which of course he would have to play to see if he liked what he was writing - so more sightreading practise without him realising. And then I asked him to write a composition out neatly so another student could perform it in a concert. He passed grade 1 theory shortly afterwards, which I couldn't have attempted before because his writing was illegible. He's doing Grade 1 piano next week having completely solved his sightreading issues.

With some students "bored" can look an awful lot like "lazy". So sometimes it can be helpful to get the message the parent is seeing "bored" because it's not been obvious.

I think that "How you write is more important.." line is shocking. And I think parents should be able to say easily to teachers that Little Jimmy would like more difficult maths questions - if you were to ask for extra time/help because Little Jimmy was struggling with maths, no one would be batting an eyelid.

However...it is nearly the summer. I know 6 or 7 weeks is a long time when you're 9, but maybe have a think about whether it's worth rocking the boat at this stage in the year, and just hope that next year's teacher is a bit more clued up. Although of course that won't help subsequent mis-labelled children who are taught by Mr X. On balance - I would talk to the Head, alone, with specific examples of your concerns.

im not a teacher but i think kids are moved about during the day? they may start on one table but move about for other subjects - are you sure this is not happening?

as a parent i think id talk to the teacher and ask 'i think my ds is doing really well in maths and xxx but I am concerned about his literacy. What can we do at home to support the work you are doing?' - i think that gives a focus to give you a productive and practical debate

sometimes the child can just be being a PITA. Obviously not always.

But a 'for instance'

I teach a group of G and T children once a week. We do fun stuff with them. Not a work sheet in sight. We make rockets, make rube goldberg machines, we have taken part in OU designed material, used microscopes and bunsens. the kids have a blast. Most of them have a wonderful time, and they are not bored.

3 of the boys misbehave on a regular basis. 2 so badly that they have been asked not to attend.

I think a two pronged approach is what is needed in most cases. Yes, make things more interesting, but you also have to give these kids the behavioural tools that they are going to need in later life. Otherwise they will end up missing out, like the 2 boys who used to be in my G and T group. they weren't bored, they just liked messing about.

I can sympathise - we have had a simialr issue with ds' P3 (=Y2) teacher. We've gone though the meetings with her, the meeting with her and the head teacher, the parents' evening - and although she has finally started to stretch the top group in Maths, it is a bit late in the school year We essentailly ended up having to agree to differ and to supplement his maths at home with sites like rainforestmaths. Got lots of ideas from Mumsnet

The good news is that it is late in the school year, so for us only 3 weeks to go. For you it'll be a wee bit longer - but you are on the final straight and hopefully next year's teacher will be better.

Raising it with the head teacher can have a positive impact though - I'm sure it did help "encourage" her to up the pace a bit (it's a wee bit differnt form your case: ds' was in the top group for Maths and they were all being bored by what she was doing). And I am sure it is no coincidence that next year she is no longer a class teacher, but instead will the the ICT teacher - or rather, the "floating" teacher that provides cover when the class teachers have thier "McCrone" (preparation) time. We're very happy with the teacher ds will be getting next year.

Hopefully, your ds will have a better teacher next year. Why not make sure to have a word early on with the new teeacher, to make sure that he/she doesn't just assume that the levels that the current teacher has put them in to arewhere they should remain.

Newgirl, the moving about bit did happen last year and it was great for my DS because he got really tailored learning: good and tough maths but also more appropriate literacy etc. But it hasn't happened this year and I've no idea why.

Martianbishop, I do recognise my son's behavioural stuff, although he kicks off far more at home than at school. The one discussion that the teacher raised with us was about the shouting out the answers. We had a big chat with DS about responsibility and empathy and he really gets it. I'm told he is pretty well behaved and does get to go on the G&T things, although they have lots of G&T kids in that class so they have to rotate events, which causes problems.

But the problem is he is disengaging somewhat - he's more unhappy by the week, less and less likely to talk about school, there is NO homework any more.

I'm am perhaps inclined to leave it now as it's end of the year but I guess I'm worried about the impact of the dummy SATs on next year's 'placing'. I'm not sure whether the head would be confidential about my concerns or whether it might be seen as inflammatory if I went to see her not him?

Perhaps other teachers could reassure me that the new one will make her own judgement? She is also the maths specialist in the school so I'm hoping it will be good!

twentypence, thanks for your comments - your approach seems a much more constructive approach than the one we're getting.

I would love to be asked to work with them on his literacy, I really wish I knew how to help him with his handwriting in particular but also to slow down his thinking processes a bit. This is why he likes maths and science: there is an answer, he's very analytical, he can solve the problem and move on. Apparently he's pretty good in the G&T teams however though more of a bossy git leader than a follower.

At home, he's more than happy to write on the computer - and works much faster there. He is writing a horror story at the moment, and recently - because he wanted to raise some money for the school charity (a school in India) - and this was all his own idea - he designed a drink ('Cinnorange'), created a logo and wrote up a business plan for making and selling it... So he can be engaged with writing.

I know I can't expect at school the one-to-one stuff that gets him going at home. In this situation, what is a wanky middle class aspirational concerned parent to do? Do we just make him fit the mould?

I am a year 6 teacher and find it really odd that the children are being put in ability groups based purely on Literacy results. The weird thing is, it would make the teacher's life harder because (as is happening with your son) children will be getting bored or struggling with work that is too difficult.
I am also pretty sure that your son's new teacher will do things his/ her way. I always try to make my own mind up about new classes and not take the previous teacher's word for anything! Bear in mind that the most common (and according to most teachers, effective) way of organising classrooms is to have ability groups for Literacy and Maths and also mixed ability groups for subjects such as art, history etc.
As far as writing goes, I strongly believe that the content of the writing is the most important thing. Yes, I have to be able to read what my year 6s have written, but perfect handwriting does not make you a good writer. Being a good writer means using interesting vocabulary, coming up with imaginative ideas, constructing varied sentences etc. After all, how many academics or authors do we think have neat handwriting all the time??!! There is, of course, a place for neat writing, eg. when you are 'publishing' your work.
You should def encourage your son's writing on the computer but also get him to write ideas down and then read them together. Praise all the successes in his writing, then have a chat about how other people might find it a bit hard to read and how could he make sure everyone could read it?
Hope this is helpful and not just waffle! And hope your son's teacher next year turns out to be more supportive.

Thank you appleeater - I really appreciate your experience on this. It is reassuring to think I am not the only one who thinks it is a bit odd to group them by literacy issues only. The other teachers in the school do not seem to be doing this.

Yup, all my academic colleagues have appalling writing... It also kind of runs in my family (though I am perfectly legible ) - the smart ones have utterly unreadable writing. My son's isn't so very bad, partly because the school are very disciplined about teaching it, but he is slow and makes lots of errors and crossings out in his writing. Your suggestions are good ones but at the moment he's really resistant to writing at home (he seems to have really got a downer on it) so it's a bit of a battle. A while ago I bought him a diary and an 'ideas' book to jot things down in so perhaps I'll try and re-engage him in that...

To the OP you are not being an arse - far from it - I really get irritated by the majority of the classroom teachers I have met (I am sure the reverse is also true) because of the attitude that they know best.

DS told me when he was four that he took work very slowly in class because he noticed that if you finished your work quickly, you just got more work. DS is the brains of the family but you will perceive that he is lazy. When he was in year 2, I waited the best part of a year to see what his teacher would do about this - whether she would ever wake up to see that he was capable of much more and try to inspire him. Needless to say she didn't. She put him in the middle maths group. Eventually I caved and told her DS's theory, and told her that he regularly did DD's maths homework (for a fee) and she is two years older than he is.

She gave him some extension work. And more extension work. Then at the end of the year, in the tones of a teacher telling a parent some remarkable news, she told me how clever he was. Silly woman.

Now he is in year 3, right at the top of his year for maths. He is only average for literacy. I can't blame gender effects because he is at a boys school, but I know he is switched on by logical reasoning and doesn't like to read. Grouping for literacy alone seems ridiculous and had the school done so it would have had the effect of switching him off forever.