Primary school teacher imposing her opinions

[Chichi444]

My son age 9, came home yesterday and told me that during their free reading time in class his substitute teacher had instructed everyone to pick a book of their choice but it had to be a non fiction so my son and his friend picked the bible, but they were later told to go and select a different book as the bible in her opinion would be classified as fiction my son and his friend disputed this as we are Christian and so is my son’s friend.
The teacher reaction to their disagreement was “there’s no proof whatsoever that the bible is real” so they were forced to pick different books.

I am absolutely furious about this!
aren’t teacher meant to remain impartial on topics such as religion and politics?
and is there anything I can do as a parent for there to be consequences as I find this unacceptable.

thank you for reading!

Bloody hell @InMyShowgirlEra why are you giving me all that? 😂 why ok earth would you think I'd need or want to read that, what a waste of your time.

The issue isn’t in that the teacher wanted them to pick something different to read or even whether or not the teacher was correct that the bible is proven. It was the way she went about it. The unnecessary and inappropriate way she decided to attempt to discredit a child’s personal beliefs. It was pointless.

As a teacher she should be more than capable of expressing herself in a way that doesn’t cause upset or offence to somebody’s faith. It’s not unreasonable to expect a basic level of tact from an adult who has decided to go into teaching.
I know tact and tolerance is a difficult concept for lots on here, but as a teacher she needs to learn an appropriate way of dealing with children wrt certain subjects.

Post this in Christian mumsnetters
The majority of British women are atheist but some are respectful, some are bitter haters of the Word of God and God, not sure why...

God bless you and your child.

Well maybe if you read it you'd see why the Bible does not fit the descriptor of Non-Fiction text and also why the boy in question will have been well aware of that.

It's the choice of words here that's the problem. It would have been nicer if she said "the Bible is a religious text so you need to chose another book."

I do agree that they should remain neutral when it comes to religion and I don't think this was neutral because stating that "there is no evidence that the Bible is real" directly opposes religious beliefs.

I'm not religious myself FYI.

We have multiple copies of the Bible knocking around in our classrooms and many are colourful and cartoon like as they are aimed at children so I can imagine some children selecting them.

The Bible contains lots of information that is real (as well as lots that is, in my firm atheist opinion, false). It is also presented as real for a readership that largely believes it is real.

Many non-fiction books contain information that is false. Any early scientific work, lots of current reference books, etc. They fall into the non-fiction category by format and intent. A non-fiction work on sociology or economics or anything else doesn’t move to the fiction section when enough of its core claims are undermined.

I presume OP would have no issue if the teacher had said “that’s not the kind of book we mean” just as if he’d proposed a telephone directory. What the teacher has done wrong is needlessly impose her religious view (one I, broadly, agree with) where it isn’t the point. I’d be annoyed too.

First, lots of people on the right are also atheists and there are plenty of left wing Christians. We're not in the USA and it's wrong to conflate the two.

Whilst the teacher should keep her opinions to herself and could have handled this better, I would use this as an opportunity to start discussing how people hold different beliefs and how that is OK. Unless you don't think it is, which would make you as bad as her.

Well maybe if you went into threads and applied some reading comprehension instead of doggedly clutching to your own agenda, you might understand that that isn't the point @InMyShowgirlEra

And maybe if you'd also read OPs posts without allowing yourself to be arrogantly blinded by your own agenda, you'd see that this is a CoE school and that her child has been allowed to do this in the past by his usual teacher. Why would you assume the worst of a child you don't even know?

It's entirely reasonable for a Christian to expect that their Christian faith be respected in a Christian school.. the same way a Jewish or a Muslim person would expect their faith to be respected in their faith school. It's not exactly a mind blowing concept, is it?

HI, am not a Christian.
I was a teacher.
I think she,was wrong (if they were her exact words).
She could have said that some people believe the bible is 'just stories' while others believe it all to be true and for that reason it would be sensible to choose a 'more obviously' non fiction book.
She should have had a few examples of what she had in mind to show the kids what sort of thing to look for.
Poor teaching, regardless of one's religious views.

Just to add - I have, belatedly, noticed that this is a C of E school., so I think the Head would be most interested in what was said.

I think “is it true or false?” fails to capture the distinction between non-fiction and fiction, though it’s relevant in a second-degree way.

We need to know the author’s own beliefs and intentions. That differs between different books of the bible, but a book written by someone who believed it to be true and intended to convey true factual information can’t be so neatly classified as “fiction”. I don’t believe the whole bible was intended as allegory nor as a con.

Would you really describe Thomas Aquinas or the pre-Copernican astronomers as “famous fiction authors”?

There’s at the very least an ‘it’s complicated’ category between fiction and non-fiction.

It's you that's doggedly clutching an agenda.

He was asked to pick out a non-fiction book. He picked out a book that didn't fit the brief, and unless he only started school last week he knew very well it didn't. He was told to follow the instruction.

You have no idea what my personal beliefs are and it really doesn't matter.

As I've said multiple times, even Christians don't generally believe the Bible is proven fact, they have faith that it's true without needing proof. Many go one step further and say it's a collection of stories written by humans meant to help them interpret God, using metaphors and moral parables to make sense of something we can't understand.

Ex teacher here. If the teacher did in fact deal with it exactly as you say, then it wasn’t particularly handled well. It’s worth remembering that the way that children recount an event might differ to how an adult bystander might recount it just because their perspectives are still quite narrow.

Anyway, all that being said, if that is how it went there were certainly better and more respectful ways to deal with it. I might have taken the line ‘Ooh clever you, the Bible is a book that people believe is true and so in that way it can be classed a non-fiction book. However in lots of parts of the Bible the writing is a narrative, a story so it doesn’t have the features we usually associate with a non fiction book and that I want you to be spotting in your reading today. It’s really in a special category of its own called ‘religious texts’ so for that reason I’m going to ask you to choose a different book. Another day we can have a chat about the features of religious texts, so thank you for helping us with that.’

And back to your question about whether you should raise it with the school, I wouldn’t. By all means have a chat with your son and explain ‘We believe the Bible is God’s true word to His people for x, y, z reasons, but not everyone does. Your teacher today doesn’t think that which is why she put it in the fiction category. You don’t have to believe that and it’s ok to explain why but you need to do it respectfully and you still need to do as your teacher says.’ No harm was done and it’s a good lesson for kids from Christian homes to learn that not everyone believes the same and to start to learn how to handle that. The teacher was a supply teacher and so less in tune with the school ethos but also not likely to have much of an impact on your DS as a permanent member of staff. Lastly as a parent who sometimes had to field similar things with her own kids, I saved speaking to the school for really impactful things that couldn’t be managed at home with a little chat and chalked up to a learning experience.

Not sure it can be described as that, even jokingly. It’s just pointing out that the instruction was for a reason and the bible didn’t fit the bill. I wouldn’t call the bible a work of fiction because of the historical value but the choice wasn’t appropriate.

This. A voice of reason.

Maybe children should be given both sides of the story - some people believe the Bible is factual, others do not. Children in primary school don’t have a faith as such - they believe whatever the adults around them tell them. My granddaughter believes god lives at the end of the rainbow and looks after her because that’s a combination of what she’s been told in school coupled with the cover picture of the class bibles she sees in school. They have a rainbow on the cover. Would I describe it as her faith? Absolutely not.

For goodness sake @InMyShowgirlEra I'm clearly not. I'm just not automatically assuming the child is "thick" or deliberately obtuse as others have accused him. And I think teachers should be respectful and sensitive of faith...particularly in a faith school.

I don't know if you're deliberately missing the point or what, but you definitely are.

"unless he only started school last week he knew very well it didn't. He was told to follow the instruction. "
You've been told that in this CofE school, the child has been allowed to read the bible under these circumstances with his regular teacher. He didn't "know very well" ..specifically because he didn't only start school last week. And he wasn't simply told to pick something different. Again, it was completely unnecessary for the teacher to be so tactless. In a faith school, and with children of that faith, if she wanted them to pick a different book she should be capable of asking them to do that in an appropriate way.

"You have no idea what my personal beliefs are and it really doesn't matter."
Ok... I don't know why you feel the need to tell me that. There have been a couple of very reasonable posts from non religious people who were able to understand that there were much better and more professional ways for the teacher to handle this, your personal beliefs shouldn't prevent you from having common courtesy for others with different beliefs.

"As I've said multiple times, even Christians don't generally believe the Bible is proven fact, they have faith that it's true without needing proof. Many go one step further and say it's a collection of stories written by humans meant to help them interpret God, using metaphors and moral parables to make sense of something we can't understand."
Christians saying that they don't need proof because they have faith is obviously not the same thing as being told your religious scripture is a work of fiction. What are you thinking? Christians still believe it's true but they don't need proof of that because they have faith.
It's not good to make generalisations anyway, there are millions of Christians and each will have their own personal relationship with God and feelings on how the bible affects them.

But having said all that...it's not relevant to the issue at all. This is a child. Whether or not other Christians would call the bible a work of fiction or not (they wouldn't) isn't the point. The teacher was disrespectful and insensitive to his beliefs and it was unnecessary. She could've easily asked him to pick a different book if it wasn't what she had in mind. If OP specifically chose a faith school, then she can reasonably expect not to have a teacher behave that way.

Yes, children need to learn that different people believe different things @Soontobe60 but the teacher wasn't doing that, and telling someone that their religious text is fiction isn't very sensitive in any case. I also think that if a child attends a faith school, that faith should be respected.

I do disagree that a child can't have faith. I mean, I understand what you're saying and why you'd have that point of view too. Yes, parents teach their children (because they believe it and they want what's best for them) but that doesn't mean they can't experience the feeling of faith. What you've described with your grandchild isn't faith any more than a child's belief in Father Christmas.. because believing something isn't the same thing as a deep personal faith.

Remember that you’re getting the story from your young child and it might not be exactly word for word what happened…

i tho you are massively overthinking this, OP. The teacher wanted them to pick a factual book (with known facts, research etc). Whatever you think of the bible, it certainly isn’t this.

I just wanted to say thank you, to all that has been shared so interesting and detailed love it!

I’ve managed to book a meeting with the head as I was informed teacher will be returning as substitute and wouldn’t want similar exchanges to reoccur as I find it it highly unprofessional inconsiderate and simply disrespectful this are 9 year olds not university students.

like other mums have mentioned on here already she really could have said it in a different way sometimes is not what we say is how we say it I strongly believe

I also double checked if my son was retelling the story right and indeed he was as I asked another adult that was given feedback on this.

Also My son has genuine fascination with bible stories he constantly talks about different events in the bible and enjoys analysing and connecting dots , so for the mums that said is unlikely for two young boys to pick the bible as a book of interest you are wrong.

I don’t think I am at all it was an inconsiderate reaction because if it was the other way round and my son went and told an adult that their faith book was fiction it would have got consequences for that

Well, she’s right. It’s probably got some good stories in it and if you want to live your life according to them that’s up to you, but it’s a work of fiction.

Given that bits of the Bible are historical record of a type, calling it fiction is a bit weird. I am an atheist myself but still feel the teacher should have said something like she wanted them to read a non-religious book as she was interested in how they approached it.

I think it’s not fiction or non fiction, it’s a religious text. Some bits are based on historical fact, others are stories and varied recounts of events. It’s not something that was appropriate as a choice in that situation but the teacher should have said it’s not a non fiction book and not added on that she thought it is a fictional book. It’s definitely not a non fictional book though and it’s correct to be told that bit.