Heart broken at joining year 4

[Wallichiana]

My poor DD hates year 4 she says since coming back from summer half the kids have become really disrespectful to the teacher she gave me a list of names and it was literally half the class. She says they talk over the teacher and disrupt the lessons and shout and grab - mostly it’s the boys. Is this a thing I’m not aware of developmentally? I’ve known a lot of these boys since nursery and they are individually nice kids but something happened that now as a group they are riotous

DD is inconsolable at night she’s sobbed herself to sleep every night for 2 weeks and it’s breaking my flipping heart. she can’t bear the noise of all the shouting, she can’t bear the rudeness and swearing, their teacher is actually one of the stricter ones this year and is great but I’m not in the class room so I can’t see the full picture.

me and DH have tried speaking to the teacher and she looks out for her, she’s sensitive and gentle but presents as much more confident than she is so they don’t see any issues but Inside I know she’s very unhappy cause at home she’s a mess and lets it all out

any words of wisdom v. Gratefully recieved.

No it's not a universal thing by any means. Are there other schools nearby you could consider?

Have you spoken to the Head? I'd make it clear it wasn't a complaint about the teacher, that you know that there is a significant number of boys who are a handful and have escalated, and that you think the class needs additional behavioural support. The Head won't want to lose the well behaved kids- senior staff should be stepping up and supporting.

Your poor DD, I’m so sorry she’s going through such a difficult time. We have just gone through a similar evening with our DD who has just moved up to year 6. The class had the PPA cover teacher all day today as their usual teacher was in meetings all day (usual teacher is also Deputy Head). DD’s behaviour in school has always been brilliant, she loves learning and is happiest in a quiet, calm classroom, and can’t bear poor behaviour. Today was full of the kind of behaviour you’re describing, she said she had her hands over her ears a lot of the time because the room was so noisy, and she felt that her own learning was going backwards because she couldn’t remember anything. They have the PPA teacher more than other classes because of the additional time out of class for the Deputy Head. The PPA teacher is new, and a number of children are clearly testing the boundaries. Meanwhile DD and a few others are stressed and miserable during the lessons for the subjects where the PPA teacher takes the class. At least they seem better with the class teacher, but it’s early days and I just hope that continues.

Like you, we have known these children since Reception, and individually they’re all nice, polite children. We’re going to watch and wait over the coming weeks, but I think we’re just going to have to weather this for the rest of this year, and offer lots of opportunities outside school, both additional school at home and/or tuition if she needs/wants it, and also regular fun things to look forward to. If she was still in year four, we would probably still watch and wait to see if things settled, as well as making it clear to school just how distressed she was at home. If nothing changed we would then consider moving her, although sadly I’m not convinced it’s radically different in a lot of schools - both pupil and parent attitudes have shifted in recent years, and there are also lots of children with unmet SEND in mainstream and many suffering with SEMH. It’s creating a horrific storm, and the hardworking, eager to learn quiet and focused children are having to find coping strategies rather than just being able to listen and enjoy their learning.

You are right I think I should speak to the head she’s very very strict and my DD would love it if she waded in, they get on well.

Ive suggested we go and visit other schools but she said she would really miss her friends so she’s torn

I’ll probably get roasted here but I’m tempted to take her out of school one day a month to go to a museum and do something educational away from the mayhem of her class. I probably have enough annual leave to cover this a couple of times before the term ends for Xmas

There was a really tricky class the year above my eldest. As a class they were just calamitous and seemed to egg each other on. It was very boy heavy and I know a couple of girls went to other schools as got too much. Nice enough kids but no teacher ever really managed to get a handle on it. I’d have a look at different schools.

The year either side was fine so it was more the blend of personalities in that class. It’s not a universal thing.

No roasting here- Im a teacher who flexi schooled my daughter for a few years- albeit with school's permission- and it was wonderful. Some schools might just allow some flexi afternoons as the core subjects are taught in the morning- or have an 'appointment' just after afternoon register so it doesn't affect their attendance figures? I predict classroom behaviour is probably worse in her class after lunch too...

PS love your name- is it for the plant?

Thanks @CoffeeAndCakeBringMeJoy

in sorry you are in a similar situation I’m hoping it calms down a bit but I’ve just never seen her so upset maybe it’s early girl
hormones at work also that is heightening the sensitivity I just don’t know I’m just at a loss but thanks for taking a moment to reply you’re right it’s still early days transitioning into the new school year and we can just hope it improves

outside of school activities is not bad idea too thanks I’ll put my head to it

thanks @napody
that’s really interesting to hear - I have a suspicion our school would never sanction flexi schooling (I didn’t know that was actually possible!) I’d have to do it on the quiet that’s not a bad suggestion with the “appointments”

I loved my primary but that was a different era in a tiny village it’s just terrible to hear her speak about the aggression in the room or even to use terms like that aged 9(!)

(ps yes im half plant myself)

To be brutally honest, the head needs to step in. They should go into lessons and the teacher clearly needs help. In situations like this, leadership is key and the dc behaving like this need clear behavioural markers. They might also need parents brought in. It’s not acceptable for the school not to deal with it.

What is this saying to girls? And possibly quieter boys? That some boys can misbehave, do what they like, display aggression and upset the majority but get away with it. It’s adult life at 8. It’s definitely something that needs correcting. The head needs to monitor what’s going on and act to stop it. Why don’t heads see this for themselves?

Yes, this class needs taking in hand. But your daughter also needs to develop some resilience. If the children are shouting/swearing at HER that is one thing (that's bullying and it is not acceptable). But otherwise she needs to get her head down, and get on with what she is meant to be doing and ignore them. Sobbing every night over being in a noisy environment seems very extreme unless she is actually being targeted.

We're having similar problems with our Y4 child who is quiet, studious and sensitive. The rowdy class coupled with a shouty teacher has turned him into a nervous wreck over the past few weeks/ it's heartbreaking to have to battle with him to actually go into school each day. I wish flexi schooling were an option here in the north west.

@IneedtheeohIneedtheeeveryhourIneedthee
I think shouting and swearing at a teacher is infact very distressing for a child to watch if they are one of the kid who respects the teacher

I agree she should try and focus but she said it can be too noisy to even concentrate at times but I see your point and I know I need to work on her resilience

Oh @Foxyloxy89 that’s harsh I hear you

I wish I could say something wiser than well schools not forever love ( only another 9 years to go)

I have a very similar situation with my year 4 DC, we are currently looking at other schools as they are so unhappy that the disruption is effecting their learning. It is difficult though as there is no guarantee another school would be better. We have investigated private school but unfortunately this is just going to be unaffordable for us.

Does she have any friends in her class?

@Jibberishforever
she does but the split up friendship groups during class and tables get rotated every week this is week 3 and it seems she’s been in some of the worst groupings - I think as she’s perceived as “good” so she is used to regulate unruly kids.

I’m trying to be balanced because they all have a right to a seat and to learn in the class but she’s said she hates it when adults try and explain away bad behaviour without listening to what the effects are on those who are trying to work. So I have to listen to her and advocate on her behalf

lots of good feedback I’ll write to the head tomorrow

We’ve had the same in year 4 last year and it’s started again year 5, also boy heavy also rowdy as fuck. My daughter has actually developed migraines from the noise and has a considerable amount of time off. We don’t really have alternative provision.
im going against the grain here as due to my wider work, I’m seeing it as a trend. Boys are being heavily influenced by what they’re seeing online and in older schools and not being the “beta”, weak, allowing authority over themselves and working hard isn’t prized. I have a boy so I’m not anti boy.

You should tell the head about the boys.

I’ve literally just emailed our head about the same thing. My DS, hard working and quiet, is in a mixed year group with a horrific cohort of nasty year 5s who are just unspeakably vile. For the first time ever he’s not happy at school, and it’s as you describe - poorly socialised boys. His teacher has been off this week and rumours abound about her leaving - it wouldn’t surprise me given the year 5 boys have been calling her fat.

He’s year 6 so I doubt we’ll move him, and he’s got some nice friends in his year. But it would be nice if he actually learnt something this year,and I am fed up to the back teeth with shit parents who think it’s okay for their children to run amok. And don’t come at me with the SEN thing - it’s just a bad cohort.

I'm not sure you're 'going against the grain'- I and another poster just said its 'not universal" as pp asked whether it was some kind of developmental stage- a reasonable question.

Yes there is also something cultural going on though- I agree. Doesn't really help the OP who I'm really glad is speaking to the Head. And it might not be a misogyny/incel influenced thing here- the teacher is male for starters. But eductaion-wide, I agree.

You're absolutely right, it's not about noise levels, it's the aggression and nastiness in a small pressure-cooker like space for a high proportion of her waking hours. It's not about resilience- would you tell a child in an aggressive home to 'be more resilient' @IneedtheeohIneedtheeeveryhourIneedthee ? The environment needs to change.

Sounds like poor behaviour management. Teachers shouldn't be shouting - we don't allow it in my school and we do have some tough and potentially unruly children. Shouting is humiliating and indicates the teacher is not in full control. There are other more effective ways to manage a class. However cover staff these days are often not trained teachers, so may not have the skills most teachers have. SLT should be supporting and advising with this issue. Have you spoken to the actual teacher about this yet? Or to a member of SLT?

PS I don't get how a day off periodically will do any good. And if you're in England, the school will be under pressure over improving attendance. Surely the school holidays are the time for nice days out.

We had a similar experience with one of my children for Y4, although it was a group of girls that suddenly seemed to become loud and disrespectful. That coupled with a large proportion of SEN children within the class it was a difficult 2 years. Y6 it all seemed to calm down. Looking back I wish I'd moved him but he had a really good group of friends so I was trying to balance that.

It was tough as he kept asking why these girls were getting away with shouting/swearing and one used to throw water bottles and even chairs and almost nothing was ever done. He once talked in a queue when he was supposed to be quiet and was made to stay in at lunchtime.

Schools are under pressure not to exclude dc and parents pull out the SEN card. The buck stops with SLL and Heads where a group are continually rowdy. The teacher clearly isn’t coping and progress of the class will suffer. It’s important for the school to deal with this and getting to the root of the issues matters. A good head will know this.

DS1 had this issue in Y4 - the class is boy heavy and had several children constantly disrupting the class, alongside a lot of low level chat. I also suspect that his Y3 teacher was a bit too laid back. It got to a point where it was causing him distress. The PPA teacher in particular clearly didn't have things under control.
They were able to reshuffle the classes mid-year which helped a lot.

Thanks all I’ve been hectic all day today sorry no no responses. Today seemed better as the teacher has clocked that the quiet kids are really not coping in the noisy room and it was a non uniform day so they did other activities and it was an outdoor day so seemed a lot more relaxed and calmer. Makes me think that some of the kids are only playing up as they can’t handle the jump up in the lessons and are struggling too in their own way

as far as SL is concerned the teacher is actually the deputy head so it feels like talking to her formally on the record is the first step

it just seems off the scale they year compared to last year either that or my DD is becoming less tolerant

DH thinks she’s ND but I don’t know I and I don’t think it’s helpful feed back and anyway I don’t think it’s relevant as now I know the noise levels are problematic for other kids after speaking to other parents today.

I have made a an appointment with the teacher

and also looking at flexible learning I didn’t know about this before posting here it seems uncommon and looking at the council website there are no kids registered as flexible learners whereas the home Ed is actually quite common. I’m sure it would be great if we could figure it out. Some kids just struggle in school too I just can’t relate to it so we are both learning on the job