School appeals advice

[TheDisillusionedAnarchist]

I just wanted to get some advice re primary school appeals (Year 2 Wales)

My daughter’s year is full and my son has been accepted for the same school. It will be a prejudice appeal not infant class size confirmed by the offer letter.

My main grounds would be

1. my daughter’s extreme anxiety which means she would be better if she was in the same school as her brother
2. The school has an excellent communication system between parents and staff which would benefit her as she is high risk for EBSA and would need a close working relationship between staff and parents

She is under CAMHS and there’s a possibility they will write a letter supporting this.

I imagine these are both fairly weak grounds and we’d be unlikely to win but worth a go. Almost no schools in our city will permit visits or discussion pre being offered a place so not much chance of strengthening the case

Do I need to include all evidence etc in my initial response to say we will be appealing or is it ok to outline my case and add later?

Any suggestions for making this appeal as strong as possible would be much appreciated.

How old is your son? Why are you moving your child in Year 2?

My son is 8 (will be Y4 in September)
Theyve never been to school before, previously home Ed. If we don’t get in will continue Home Ed as want to avoid school moves etc and will just stay on the waiting list.

You’d need a letter why in a medical professionals opinion she should go to the same school as her brother. Try and find other things specific to that school that could help like clubs.

I don’t imagine the second point would hold much weight as all schools would be expected to have good communication with parents.

Try and get numbers of students in other classes, where they’ve gone over PAN. The school will probably make arguments about class size, fitting in the dining hall, number of desks, that kind of thing to argue they don’t have space for another pupil. Any classes with more pupils may demonstrate that they can cope with the extra.

It also sounds like she may need an EHCP, I’m not very knowledgeable on it but if you post on the special needs board the posters there are amazing and know pretty much everything. You can self refer and you may have this school named, or at least if she ends up at another school she’ll have the support she needs.

It is a lengthy process though.

You can indeed apply for an EHCP yourself. IPSEA have a model letter you can use. The process is lengthy and you may be waiting a year or more before it’s finalised. You apply for a needs assessment, EHCNA, which may then lead to an EHCP.

We’re in Wales so it would be an IDP, my son has one. It’s the model they want to use for the English SEN review. Unfortunately you can’t name a school on the IDP unless it’s specialist or catchment school can’t meet need. It is much much weaker than an ECHP generally, I could apply for an IDP and considered it but not sure if it will help and my son’s took 39 weeks to finalise (and we asked for no changes!)

Will look at other things school can offer, unfortunately it’s a pretty mediocre school but just unusually ALN friendly, open and flexible and unfortunately in the most populated area of town so lots of catchment kids filling it.

I would have some difficulty agreeing or accepting an 8 year old Y4 sibling is needed to ensure the Y2 child is able to access school. It’s not an argument that sits well with me. They might hardly ever see each other and it’s not great for independence. Not sure how a school could even facilitate it. As it’s y2, 30 is the limit so y3-6 numbers don’t matter. A school might have been forced to take a LAC if they have more than 30, but I suspect staying on the waiting list is the answer. Y3 might have places open up.

I would have some difficulty agreeing or accepting an 8 year old Y4 sibling is needed to ensure the Y2 child is able to access school. It’s not an argument that sits well with me. They might hardly ever see each other and it’s not great for independence.

Not fair on the 8 yo either, surely? He shouldn't have to feel responsible for managing his sister's anxiety.

@HonoriaBulstrode Yes. That’s what I meant. It’s not fair or a sensible argument.

No he shouldn’t.

When would they see one another? Do year four and year two eat together? Do they have the same playtimes on the same place? Do they go to the same assembly?

I appealed for a KS2 place and the panel went into a great deal of detail when they asked me questions.

I think the main argument will be that getting her in the door at all is likely to be extremely tricky and if he’s in the same school even if she never sees him she is more likely to go.

I agree it’s weak though I suspect CAMHS will back us up.

Its not an infant class size appeal. The class isn’t already 30. They mix year groups so I suspect they’re below PAN in Y1 hence it not being infant class size.

Part of my concern is it is worth the hassle of a fairly weak appeal versus waiting on the waiting list (very mobile area, however we’d be category 6). On the other hand why not appeal, if I do win great and if we don’t we haven’t lost anything.

@TheDisillusionedAnarchist So is the KS1 full or not? Is the class below 30? Is the total YR to Y2 below PAN? What has the school said in terms of why there’s no place? Are they full or not and how do they organise classes and how is the space utilised? I’m unclear as to why they haven’t offered a place if they are below PAN. You need the data on numbers and classroom sizes.

They have a Pan of 70 per year and run mixed aged classes of 30. They are full in Year 2 but I assume must not be full in Year 1 as it is not an infant class size appeal about which admissions were very clear.

School isnt in session so difficult to clarify. It was the only school in the city out of eight I approached who were happy to let us look round before accepting a place or even applying. I am really reluctant to apply for a school I know nothing about beyond the website but I assume that isn’t grounds for appeal.

@TheDisillusionedAnarchist 70 a year is ludicrous! Should be 60 for obvious reasons. The school must mix up nearly every year group. What do they do with the extra 10 every year? Mix up 2 years into 140? Even that is odd. It leaves 20 left over. Or it’s 5 classes of 28 in which case, going over PAN won’t hurt them. Are you appealing to LA or is this a VA school? I’d argue they are not at maximum infant class size if they are running 5x28.

I have never ever heard of schools refusing to show a parent round! That’s bizarre. Unless they are full. Going into y2 is ks1 and if they have a space they must admit. They must tell you details of ks1 classes. Can you contact LA for details? These must be supplied before the appeal.

They do mix every year group. My guess is there is 70 in Year 2 this coming year but they’re under PAN in Year 1. Alternatively perhaps they do run classes of 28 although they were adamant it was 30.

I will contact admissions and ask. It’s a very average LA school just not our catchment school and in the crowded part of town so busy from catchment kids.

It seems to be absolutely the norm here not to permit parents through the door, we were turned down for this school and offered another one and it took a lot to get to view that school even after an offer. I said to the person on the phone ‘am I supposed to just accept a school having never seen it and knowing nothing about it’ and she responded ‘that’s what most people do’ as if I was a bit mad.

If they’ve said it’s not ICS then I’m not sure you need concern yourself with how classes are arrived at. A PAN of 70 isn’t a ridiculous number at all - it’s 210 over year R, 1 and 2 - making 7 mixed age classes of 30.

Most schools do not mix YR and Y1 though. For obvious reasons. 75 makes more sense. All info on how classes are arranged should be made available to op. Are there spaces or not? How are year groups mixed?

So surely the better option would be for him to move to a school where she has a place - you’d stand more chance regarding PAN and going over in KS2.

We turned it down. It couldn’t have met her needs. Honestly had no intention of sending him to school but this particular school is potentially able to meet his needs (or he’ll need specialist provision (he’s very autistic)) So he will be here and either she’ll join him (appeal/waiting list) or stay home Ed or once summer’s over can widen our school search and see if any others might fit.

I think if you have turned a place down for DD, the AA has fulfilled its obligations. So as it’s not ICS, the AA must prove prejudice to the education of others already on roll at the school you want . This might be due to lack of classroom space and the PAN being 70 which has been reached. The panel will review the decision not to offer a place. If that decision was flawed, they can offer a place but won’t if prejudice etc is proved. My AA makes it clear the vast majority of KS1 appeals are ICS and last year, none were successful. It still boils down to numbers and space.

Yes no further recourse with AA apart from appeal which is fair enough. I don’t want to start school and change so makes more sense to continue Home Ed.

I’d thought it would be ICS so wasn’t going to bother appealing but now it isn’t, it seems potentially worth a go but then it’s definitely weak and not likely to win then seems a bit pointless to waste time and energy on

It’s always worth a go. Assuming they normally operate with 7 mixed classes of 30, then as it’s not ICS at least one of those can accommodate one extra pupil, so potentially a weak case could be enough.

@titchySo why hasn’t the school admitted? Overwhelmingly KS1 appeals are ICS. What grounds are they using to say no? The school must give details to op of their case. They might not be operating 4x30 due to classroom space but op needs calcs and numbers for this. We don’t seem to know what the school is actually saying. How they split YR would interest me!

They have already said why - because they are at PAN for her year group.

As to how they split year R, I would imagine the 10 oldest/most able would be in a class with the weakest/youngest year 1s.