Appeal In Hertfordshire

[welcome13]

Morning all,

I wanted some advice we are appealing for our local school as my son didnt get a space we was told they accept all faith and have to worship regularly in the local parish which we do but it was not accepted because it was not a church its a mosque. This school is always oversubscribed as its very good its our closest school we would only have a chance to get in through the last admission criteria but if no children are admitted in the last criteria how would any other faith have chance to access the school. I know its their admission but i feel its not fair when we can show we worship regularly and committed to god. Has anyone been through anything similar im christian and husband is muslim and our son is being brought up in the islam faith but we want his to learn all faiths too. I believe the criteria should be worship regularly in the parish regardless what faith you are

You will only win an appeal (assuming this Reception/Infant Class Size) if the admissions criteria state that the Faith categories apply across all Faiths and you produced relevant evidence etc, so an error was made which denied your ds a place. You may even have qualified on Faith grounds but your address meant you did not live near enough if distance is a tiebreaker within that category. The offer letter should make it clear. Most state schools are multi-faith but if it a C of E or RC school, for example, the criteria may prioritise those baptised and practicing at specific churches or parishes. If that is the case your argument won’t change the situation for your ds.

As the last poster has said it depends on the criteria of the school. I would read this criteria carefully. If the school says that they only accept xx children then your refusal is ‘justified’. We have a similar situation locally about a catholic school which requires baptism and church going. I think you are conflating faith with local attendance at a mosque vs a church.

This is a simple Google )of course research yourself)

Faith schools in the UK, while often prioritizing pupils of their own faith, are generally required to admit pupils of other faiths or no faith when they have available places. They can, however, use faith-based oversubscription criteria when they are oversubscribed.

You said it was oversubscribed. Sounds like they followed their rules and are allowed to not offer a place to your son.

we would only have a chance to get in through the last admission criteria but if no children are admitted in the last criteria how would any other faith have chance to access the school.

Ummm.... if a school is oversubscribed then it is not uncommon that no child is admitted under the last criteria. So this isn't a ground for appeal.

You need to check the wording of the admissions policy. If they have followed this, then you don't have any grounds for appeal.

I understand your confusion. There is a local Catholic school near us that has criteria that prioritises Catholics, then other religions then distance. They would say they accept all faiths, but in reality they are usually full with Catholics and don't get further down the list. You may feel this is unfair, but an appeal is not the place to challenge the admissions criteria, plus this is a generally accepted criteria that a lot of schools have.

Thanks all we are going to see how we get on have nothing to loose. I assume the criteria stated any worshipers in the local district. If it was a church and not a mosque we would 100% get in seems unfair everyone should have the same right to access a very good school especially when they are learning about all religions in their curriculum.

I assume the criteria stated any worshipers in the local district.

Please, please look up the actual criteria. They should be on the school website in the Admissions tab

You cannot assume that. Read the criteria before you appeal. Faith criteria are normally very specifically written and frequently require a letter/form signed by the local officiant certifying regular attendance within a time frame as well as baptism into the relevant faith/s (known as a Supplementary Form). This link may clarify the legalities of using Faith as priority criteria https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06972/SN06972.pdf

especially when they are learning about all religions in their curriculum.

All primary schools teach about a range of religions.

Here are the criteria for a random catholic school in Herts:

1. Catholic children looked after and Catholic children who were previously looked after

1. Baptised Catholic children with a sibling in the school at the time of admission. (baptism certificate will be required)
2. Baptised Catholic children who are resident in the parishes of St. Peter’s, Hatfield; Marychurch, Hatfield; or St Thomas More, Welham Green. (baptism certificate will be required)

4. Other Catholic children who do not meet the above criteria. (baptism certificates will be required)
5. Other children looked after and children who were previously looked after,
6. Children of Catechumens (as evidenced by a supporting letter from their parish priest) or eastern Christians (baptism certificates will be required).

1. Christian children of other denominations whose membership is evidenced by a minister of religion
2. Children of other faiths whose membership is evidenced by a religious leader.
3. 9. Any other applicants.

(numbering went random)

Much more detailed than 'any worshippers in the local district'

Of course a faith school prioritises children of that faith!

You MUST look at the actual admission criteria- it will be on the schools website under their policies section, in the admissions policy. If you actually fit the criteria of faith- and the school has specified religious worship within the parish rather than a specific type of religious worship, then you’d be well worth going to appeal. If not, there’s literally no point appealing and wasting not only your own time, but also that of the council, the school and panel members.
when you make an appeal you’ll have to state the grounds on which you are appealing and you can’t base your case on assumptions. It’s not really a case of nothing to lose, you have no chance of being successful if you’re going to be flippant about the assumptions you’re making.
happy to help if you can find and tell us all the schools admission criteria!

You were told that accept all faiths. What does the admissions criteria actually say? You can’t appeal without knowing the actual criteria as you have no idea if an error was made.

They do, in theory.

but if 200 eligible catholic children apply to a school with 200 places, they’re going to come above children from other faiths.

The criteria admission states clearly that you have to worship within the map that is attached signed also which we provided but has to be a church what I'm saying is seems unfair it can't be a mosque or a sinagog or any other place of worship but only a church im English and raised as a Christian and I feel its unfair should be any worshiper

It has to be a church because it is a christian school.

You’ve chosen Islam for your child. You didn’t have to. You don’t get to make a Christian school change the rules for you. If there were enough children in the higher categories to fill the slots ahead of you, that’s just bad luck.

(I am an atheist and disagree with faith schools, but your position is completely bizarre.)

There is clearly a difference between what you think the definition should be and what it is. If you post the wording someone can advise but it seems you may have misunderstood the detail.

@welcome13 you feeling it is unfair is not grounds for appeal. Whilst you are a Christian, you have chosen to raise your son in his father’s faith. This will reduce your options for faith schools as more of them in this country will be c of e or catholic.

This just isn't remotely what admissions appeal panels address.

There are a lot of people who strongly disagree with state-funded schools being allowed to use faith as an oversubscription criteria that you could join with to campaign for changes to the wider public policies. You can also work with your council to give input on admissions arrangements for future years and how they do or don't meet local needs. But the admissions appeal panel isn't going to even consider this particular argument - they cannot as it just isn't in their remit.

I understand your feel it is unfair. It IS unfair in many ways. In a lot of areas the faith schools are popular for getting good results that are in part due to having a selective intake.

This won't hold any weight at appeal. If the admissions criteria says it must be a church then that is what it must be. They appear to have followed the criteria correctly, so you won't get anywhere. It will be a fair amount of stress for basically zero chance.

Arguing that the admission criteria are unfair or that they should include anyone worshipping in the parish regardless of faith won't get you anywhere. You can only argue against the admission criteria if they are in breach of the Admissions Code. Faith schools are allowed to prioritise people who worship at church (assuming the school is CofE or RC). Doing so is not a breach of the Admissions Code. If this is your only argument for appeal, you should expect to lose.

seems unfair everyone should have the same right to access a very good school

Even aside from the religious aspect, this is just one of those 'life's unfair' things. Of course everyone should have very good things. In reality, it's not possible. Very good things are oversubscribed and will fill up wth people in the top categories never reaching the last one, so the 'all faiths' is purely theoretical.

He will learn about other faiths in any school but he would practise the Christian faith at a Christian school which would be different to the faith he currently practises. Unfortunately it is your local school but I wouldn’t want my child going there if I was in your situation.

but he would practise the Christian faith at a Christian school which would be different to the faith he currently practises

Not necessarily - if the DC got in, the OP could remove him from the worship / RE aspects. Although that would seem to be a bit odd, having made such a fuss about him not being allocated a place to start with.

The Admissions Code make only two real stipulations with regard to the setting of oversubscription criteria, basically that looked after / previously looked after children should be the highest criterion and that any other criteria listed must be clearly understandable, and reasonable.

For a faith school, giving priority to those of the faith concerned is allowed. Giving priority to those of the faith worshipping at the church in the parish where the school is situated is allowed and reasonable in that it prioritises local DC (of the faith) etc. If the school does not fill all its places before it runs out of 'own faith' applicants, then it must admit those who don't fit any of those criteria (members of other religions, those who live miles away but want this school / any faith schools/ just a school place, please). But it must apply its oversubscription criteria in order, and stop offering places when PAN for that intake is reached, whether in the middle of criterion 3 or with the second-last 'any other applicant' (unless the last one in is from a multiple birth, when admitting the other DC over PAN is allowed without the school having to take the 'relevant measures' that just randomly deciding to take a few more would do).

@welcome13 what are the actual oversubscription criteria for this school? Is there actually a criterion along the lines of 'member of another religion, with regular worship evidenced by a statement from the minister (or whatever) of the place of worship', or are members of other faiths, however devout, just included under ' all other applicants'?

Sometimes the supporting evidence from a church, mosque or other is not as expected.
Sometimes the parents put ABC but the evidence provided differs and says XYZ.
Sometimes the school accepts the evidence from the closest place of worship.
Sometimes the article of deeds puts those in the parish before those outside and with an odd-shaped parish boundary, this may place a child two miles away in the parish above a child 200ft away outside the Parish.

Read the paperwork and check that you have been assigned to the right category and ask for a copy of the supporting evidence your faith leader provided. We get many applications that say there is no evidence from the father leader, in complete contradiction to the parents statement.

Is this a joke?
If you look closely it will 100% say more than "worship any old religion"

It will be a specific denomination.this is totally legal and fair / allowed.

We are HOPING for a C of E school place under trinity worship criteria 4 as we are Catholic.
We aren't applying to any of the (amazing) Jewish schools as we know there isnt a hope in hell of getting a place despite the fact that "we worship"

If you were c of e worshipers and had been declined you still probably wouldn't have a case (as then it would go to distance) as non practicing christian and muslim you are not in catergory 1 and as a result had close ZERO chance and CORRECTLY were not allocated a place.

The fact you are even appealing is kind of indicative of what is wrong with society right now...