Mixed year group classes in primary school

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My daughter’s primary school informed us just before half-term that they will be mixing years 3 and 4 from September. The class sizes will be over 30, around 33 or 34. My daughter will be year 4 in September. I’m struggling to find any positives here, so would be grateful to know about other people’s experiences! Thank you.

i went to a mixed year group primary and for history topics they cycled them round, so never repeated. It was more obvious who was in top sets for maths and English, as they had more of an array of kids, we did have ability tables.

OP I would ask around their plans for children in the core subjects. Are they planning on ability tables? Are the children going to know? How to they plan to help and motivate kids if they know they are in a lower set than peers?

Thing is, schools which have done this for ever are set up for it and follow a 2 year curriculum and so on to make sure things aren’t repeated. That clearly isn’t the case here; it will be new for the school and will require a lot of extra thought and planning in the first instance to get it set up. I do hope teachers are being supported with this but I suspect they may not be. The huge class is shown statistically to make no difference to progress but as a teacher it’s a bloody nightmare - more marking, more parents evenings, more reports, on top of suddenly getting your head round teaching 2 year groups. Very doubtful they’ll have a full time TA as someone above asked, TAs in KS2 are few and far between. It’s far from ideal and is based purely on funding.

I think this will become more common with falling birthrates. I know of several local schools doing it.

There is a huge range of abilities within a year group so it might be that a high achieving year three is way ahead of a year four. Most of the curriculum is in two year blocks anyway except Maths but White Rose and other schemes have special materials for composite classes..

I honestly wouldn't worry as there are pros and cons to everything- even a larger class. What's most important is a good teacher.

I went to a school with year 3-6 all in one class (although in the 90s) and I did fine!

My DS went to a mixed class primary (45 child intake so 3 classes spread over 2 years). It worked best when the classes were a 50/50 split imo. Ds spent a year as one of 6 year 1s in a year 2 class and a year as one of 6 year 5s in a year 6 class and that wasn't ideal socially/emotionally. I never had any concerns about the teaching, they did maths and English groups. His school have 1 TA minimum per class though which gives a lot more flexibility.

As a pp said, I would be concerned that the set up hasn't been tested/practised so it could be a learning curve for the school. I'd ask lots of questions as to how they plan to deal with issues.

What is the actual PSN for each of the year groups, rather than the number of children in them? My concern would be that if the years are under PAN, unless there was sone kind of official arrangement to cap the year groups at the number of children currently in them, the school would not be able to turn down new applications, which would push the class sizes up further.

I would have a LOT of questions about this: as a PP said, this is very different from a school accustomed to and expert at teaching in mixed age group classes.

I’d be asking (as a minimum):

• Does this mix involve ALL of Year 3 and ALL of Year 4, or just some of them? The overall size of the school would suggest they usually have 2 classes of each year group, so are they doing 1xY3, 1xY4 and 1xmixed?
• If it only involves some, how are the children being selected? Age or ability?
• How is the curriculum being rearranged? In particular, if there are both mixed and single year group classes, how is the curriculum being redesigned to ensure that all children in the same year group receive the same curriculum - so eg all Y4s in the school learn the same Science topics, ditto Y3)? Equally, how are they making sure no Y4 children repeat topics?
• Has the teacher taught a composite class before? What additional training and what additional time to prepare for the new setup will they receive?
• What % SEN will the new class have? Is it the same as in other classes? Lower / higher?
• Will the new class have a TA? For how much of the day?
• What will happen in future years, as these two year groups move up through the school? Will the children in the mixed class now always be mixed?
• Overall, how are the school’s finances looking?

I would not like the size of that class, that's way too big.
I went to a primary school that had some mixed year group classes - year 5 was split into one normal size year 5 class, some year 5s went into the year 4 class, and some went into the two year 6 classes. I went from year 4 to a majority year 6 class, then another majority year 6 class but did different material both years so it worked well. But I do wonder how well it work when its the first year of trying it out in your school. I assume they must cover the year 4 topics in the first year otherwise your DD's year would be repeating topics, and then the next year they'd do the year 3 topics.

And what would you advise if the answers are negative?

Yes, that 33 is nasty. Especially, as another poster said, they could not deny further admissions up to PAN so could easily go up significantly during the year with it still not being economically feasible to move to two separate classes.

If there are some unmixed Y3 and Y4 classes, it could be argued that those should be very big while the mixed is held down a bit due to additional difficulties of teaching the mixed class.

Move school. Quickly, because others will be doing the same and taking available places.

(We did some months of home ed, then moved house and area under somewhat similar circumstances )

Edited to add: we did not do this ‘in advance’, when hearing of the plans, but unfortunately only once the damage they caused became apparent. This took years to resolve - really the rest of primary, after the events of Y1.

Or, if there are some unmixed classes, argue very hard for your child to be in the single age class for their year group.

This had a hugely detrimental effect on my son's education because he had it for TWO years in primary. I think the only students it benefitted were the younger gifted and talented children, who were stretched. For the older children, they stagnated. And for the younger SEN children, there wasn't a hope in hell of them keeping up or accessing the work.

A real failing of the school to resort to this. Terrible for the children. Horrible (organisation and job satisfaction wise) for the teacher.

My DS's primary did this one year but then that class had less pupils than the others (21 versus 30 in the other) and they also chose the most independant pupils. I think it's bonkers with so many pupils in the class because the teacher has two follow two programs and they need calm for independent learning.

My sons school did this, however his class was between 37 and 42.

Years 3 and 4 are a phase so a lot of the stuff across that phase can be taught in any order. If the teacher is good, they will do the topics your child hasn't done. I don't know about maths as sometimes that is sequential, so I would ask about that.

My main question would be what happens next year. A mix of 4 and 5 is less easy than 3/4 and a mix of 5 and 6 could be very hard as a lot of schools go a bit SATs crazy.

They aren’t ideal. I wouldn’t send my child to school with mixed classes (as a teacher). It’s very hard to manage successfully.

Not true for core subjects. There are specific objectives in maths for eg for year 3 before you can move onto y4 work. Foundation subjects yes, not for maths English and reading.

The reality is school budgets are shot and pupil numbers are fluctuating so. If the school need to save money there may not be a lot of choice.

In some counties mixed classes are the norm and managed successfully.

But all parents can do that. Wouldn't wash in schools I've worked in as it would set a precedent that can't be maintained for every child.

Taking the child out is a big step and relies on many logistics including that other local schools, with places, have all single year groups.

I worked with a family who removed their child from a mixed Y1/2 class to pure Y2, only to find that in the ‘new’ school, in KS2 the class became Y3/4/5.

At a parents meeting where parents were unhappy about mixed age classes I did suggest that they could solve it - ‘in the village, please can you get together and arrange to have your babies in blocks of 30 - September to August!”

Tongue in cheek, but they got it!

To be really clear, if this was a school with established mixed-age classes, with curriculum progression designed for them and teachers experienced in teaching it, I would have many fewer concerns, especially for a child of average ability. It’s the newness of this that is the main issues.

That's why I said to check how they would do maths.

She should also ask about English if it is similar that you have to master one skill before being taught the next.

My child is in a mixed year group school, only 150 children in total. No problems, with learning hitting every target and above. Great they are mixing with different aged children and every year will be different ish children. As in life it is very much like that, learning how to develop new relationships etc. She loves it and as parents we are happy.

But that is a school where this is the norm and everything is designed around it - very different indeed from a thrown-together mixed class of 33 in a school that has never done mixed classes before.

It is a huge disadvantage for the bright pupils in higher year.

well it’s tough really if the government have decided this happens then it happens :/ it might work and it might not. Can look at other schools but doubt that is the answer also. If many other schools do it why would it be a problem in this school. The teachers know the curriculum and have to adapt accordingly like many other job roles out there.

Yes, the teacher will have to adapt - they will probably work their hearts out and do their absolute best with the bad hand they have been dealt.

The question is whether this is a good option from the child’s point of view . In my experience, no (in this particular set of circumstances, not for all mixed classes), and so the parent would be well-advised to research other options to then compare advantages and disadvantages.