Would you rather primary class was 16 or 30?

[Roxietrees]

DS due to start reception in Sept- due to complicated situation (long story and there are other factors of course) he has a choice of two schools. One where they’ll only be 16 kids in the class (one form entry) and the other has 30 (also one form entry). Both schools are good and have a similar reputation. Which would you prefer? Smaller class are obviously beneficial but as small as 16, I feel there may be less options for friendships etc?

The smaller class does sound nice however I would be worried about what would happen in the future. If a some students left as is natural due to house moves etc would it be financially viable for the school? Or they may look to mix with other years.

There were only 16 of us in my year at primary school. It meant lots of interaction with the teachers, but didn’t prepare us for secondary school (especially as I went to a secondary school that nobody else went to).

My daughter was in a class of 30 (1 class per year) and had outgrown the friendship options by year 5 (lockdown didn’t help).

I think it depends on the child.

@Roxietrees birth rates likely.

That would worry me tbh as next is combined years.

That's a no brainer- the smaller class every time.

The reason you don't want a school with falling rolls is because funding is based on head counts.

I wouldn’t be picking based on class size. I would be picking based on how good is the outdoor space, key stage 2 SATS results (available on govt website), availability of afterschool club and after school activities if you need those things, and ease of logistics for getting child to school eg can you walk vs have to drive etc. Also visiting the schools can help understand the culture of the school and give you a good gut feel on where your child might be happiest. Sorry not sure if you have already said some of this, I’m typing quickly in my lunch break!

Small.

DD is one of 5 in Reception (low birth year plus some expected military kids didn’t come due to deployment changes) and they share a class with Year 1, there’s 10 of them so 15 total. There’s only 6 girls but not been an issue.

There’s usually 8-10 per cohort at our small school and it’s got far more positives than negatives (they do competitive sports with the other small schools to make up teams).

The ratios might the same in both because the larger class will get a TA and smaller one won’t.

As a 1-off small year, 16 might be surmountable by the school (it will, however, make their finances extremely tight). However, if next year is also small, then it’s likely that the school will
lose 1 teacher and combine R + Y1 in a class of 30.

Going forward, unless numbers improve it could easily shrink from a school of 7 classes with its own head to one of 3 or 4 classes, sharing a head with another school. Established small schools, with established teachers used to teaching mixed age classes is one thing. The forced transition to mixed classes with teachers whose peers are gradually being ‘let go’ is unlikely to be as successful as a school that continues as 1 fairly full class a year.

Another impact, especially if all other local schools are full to PAN, is that this school will become the default for all arriving children; all those who are hard to place or whose initial school hasn’t worked out. This can be a good thing but can IME mean a fairly unstable mix of Traveller; military; recent migrant children; children with behavioural needs or SEN; children placed in care. Funding depends on numbers on census day, so additional arrivals bring no funding but can absorb significant resource.

@CloverPyramid my children went to a 2 form entry school initially as I thought similarly to you. It was a disaster and DC hated it, were lost in the crowd, received next to no attention and were overlooked all the time. When they were hurt or upset at play time no one knew what had happened because it was so busy.

Moved them to a mixed class small school (still 30 per class but mixed years) they've thrived. Loads more attention, lots of personal contact, and they get split into year groups often so small group teaching targeted towards their interests/strengths/weaknesses. The mixed classes have been great for meeting new people each year and encouraging the children to look out for each other. When they all go on to secondary those bonds make transition less bumpy.

It really hasn't been the worst of all worlds at all.

My 2 have been in small classes throughout primary school, and have really benefited from it. The teachers know all the pupils really well, and know their interests etc. I wouldn’t worry about a one-off small year group; sometimes it’s a low birth year, or just some random reason (eg a parent in a local Facebook group really talks up another school and everyone goes there).

@BinBadger I entirely agree that a school that has had mixed-age classes long term and all of whose systems are geared to them (including staffing for smaller groups etc) can be a really positive experience and deliver an excellent education.

However a school that is forcibly transitioning to mixed age classes due to falling rolls and squeezed budgets, using staff and processes geared to single year group classes is a very different prospect. It might be an excellent school one the process has worked through, but the transition is likely to be bumpy and sub-optimal for the pioneering year group(s).

Always smaller.
My DCs moved schools just before Christmas last year for a plethora of reasons.
At school 1, the classes were massive - 33 in DS’s class.
He was really struggling, we were told that he was going to have to be put into remedial reading classes because he was practically illiterate apparently…….
We moved both school-age DCs to school 2, where they have much smaller class sizes. There’s currently 18 kids in DS’s class and within a week of starting there DS was placed in the top third of the class for reading 🫠🫠
Turns out he doesn’t struggle with reading at all. He struggles with a chaotic classroom.

16

A school with a falling rolls doesn't mean dc get more attention because of smaller class sizes, it usually means cuts.

It’s very unlikely that the 16 will stay a 16. They’ll most likely mix year groups. So I wouldn’t consider small class size as a factor and instead go with the school you otherwise prefer/ most convenient.

Have they changed their PAN (admissions number)? If this level is to continue you will undoubtedly end up with mixed year classes (happening a lot in what were one form entry schools) Falling birth rate is having a significant impact on some schools

My sons went to private school and there was 16 max 20 in a class. Turned out my youngest was dyslexic and I’m quite sure he would have got ‘lost’ in a school if there were bigger classes. He was well behaved and quiet and good at masking the issues so he’d have just been missed. As it was his teacher did a dyslexia check at 7 and he didn’t score highly enough to warrant a full assessment. However he went into her class when he was in Year 6 and she realised he hadn’t really progressed in terms of reading from year 3. She did the screening test again which flagged dyslexia and I got a full assessment which diagnosed moderate dyslexia and strategies were put in place with the school. Once he was diagnosed his confidence came on in leaps and bounds and he got three As at A level. If he’d been in a bigger class I think he would just have been invisible.

I would be asking the school very careful questions about staffing.

A R class of 30 typically operates with 1 full-time teacher + 1 FT TA (plus any 1:1 staff for children with very high needs). An HLTA may replace the teacher for 1 half day per week for their PPA (non-contact) time

With only 16 lots of funding coming in, ot is likely that the school may:

• Not have a TA for the class at all or
• Only have a P/T TA (eg just for morning phonics teaching, or mornings only) and / or
• Use an HLTA, not a teacher, for several sessions (eg teacher 3 days / HLTA two days)

I would also ask the school what arrangements they would make next year if the next year group is similarly small.

Is the school LA or part pf a MAT? How full
is the nearest other school in the same MAT? Federation or even merger, with closure of 1 school, could be on the cards long term - is the nearest other school in the MAT one you are happy with?

‘Smaller class = more attention’ only works if the staffing is not reduced to match. 2 staff to 30 is actually more attention per child than 1 to 16.

30 is way to many children. Easy choice.

If you are lucky.
The TAs were always sick or called to 1:1 then one of our children attended a school with large number of children in classes. School couldn't afford subs.

I was a teacher for several years, in various sizes of schools. The majority of children do fine in either, but I’ve seen far more children suffer from the limited social opportunities in small schools than have the experience you describe in larger ones. And far more inadequate teaching in mixed year classes than single year ones, particularly when the school hasn’t been mixed year groups from the start.

Also worth bearing in mind that if 30 school doesn’t work out, 16 school can admit you through in-year transfer very easily. Extremely unlikely they’ll reach 30 during the year (obviously a different case next year if they mix classes)

If 16 school doesn’t work out, then you can’t move to 30 school (unless you are very lucky and the place you leave is unfilled in the interim) as Infant Class Size rules generally prevent in-year admission if the class size is already 30.

Thank you for all the helpful responses. Unfortunately it’s not going to be me making the decision, a judge will be making it. The 16 school is 5 min walk for me, 20 min drive for other parent. The school other parent has chosen is 15 min drive for them, 20 min drive for me. We have 50/50 custody. I would think the smaller school would be a no brainer for a judge as it’s in a beautiful setting with tons of outdoor space (the other one is not) however I don’t want to get my hopes up