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Greater Depth

26 replies

frillygillymilly · 19/03/2025 18:10

Hello,

I had a parents evening yesterday & the teacher was very pleased that DD is GD in reading & maths based on recent SATs mocks. Apparently her reading score was one of the highest in the year. How hard is it to score GD? feel I may have underestimated DD a bit!

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Bristollocalknowledge · 19/03/2025 18:56

It depends on the socioeconomic background of the school. In my children school more children are greater depth than not but if some areas it will be very different.

frillygillymilly · 19/03/2025 19:05

It's probably quite affluent & they have a fairly high % that score GD each year. A lot of parents tutor though for London grammars/privates which I assumed bumps up the scores. Some of her classmates did indeed secure grammar/private places.

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frillygillymilly · 19/03/2025 19:09

Oh and she's only expected for writing.

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Bunnycat101 · 19/03/2025 20:10

Nationally the results last year were:

  • reading (29%)
  • writing (13%)
  • maths (24%)
  • spag (32%)

So in percentage terms not that exclusive a club really for reading. Getting GD across all scores is where the percentage of kids really drops. I’m amazed nationally so many kids do get GD on the spag as I suspect a lot of adults wouldn’t. Makes you appreciate why so many people say year 6 is a bit of a dull year if schools are cramming fronted adverbials and the like.

frillygillymilly · 19/03/2025 20:16

@Bunnycat101 thanks for that. I forgot spelling, GD in that too. I would have thought spelling would be lower as a % too.

Makes you appreciate why so many people say year 6 is a bit of a dull year if schools are cramming fronted adverbials and the like.

True!

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SamPoodle123 · 21/03/2025 07:34

I think the most difficult one to get GDS for is the writing. The other ones don’t seem that difficult, especially when you compare what it takes to pass the 11+. My dc were GD for everything but writing before they started the 11+ prep. But after the 11+ prep writing became GD. The writing standard here is incredibly high (at least compared to what I grew up with in a different country!).

frillygillymilly · 21/03/2025 07:57

yes looking at the results above, writing is the hardest to get.

I didn't bother with 11+, it's so competitive in London & I didn't want to do all that tutoring.

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JustMarriedBecca · 21/03/2025 22:44

More critical to get standardised scores. You can be GD at, I think, 115 out of 140

There's a big difference between 115 and 140.

Have a look at NFER results. You can see the percentages.

frillygillymilly · 21/03/2025 23:08

I'm sure the teacher said her reading score was 118 out of a maximum 120 hence why it was one of the highest in the school so that has confused me @JustMarriedBecca. DD said she her actual mark on the exam paper was 46/47 out of 50.

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JimmyGrimble · 22/03/2025 01:39

Bunnycat101 · 19/03/2025 20:10

Nationally the results last year were:

  • reading (29%)
  • writing (13%)
  • maths (24%)
  • spag (32%)

So in percentage terms not that exclusive a club really for reading. Getting GD across all scores is where the percentage of kids really drops. I’m amazed nationally so many kids do get GD on the spag as I suspect a lot of adults wouldn’t. Makes you appreciate why so many people say year 6 is a bit of a dull year if schools are cramming fronted adverbials and the like.

The SPAG in Y6 is much more advanced than fronted adverbials. We do those in Y4.

JustMarriedBecca · 22/03/2025 06:21

frillygillymilly · 21/03/2025 23:08

I'm sure the teacher said her reading score was 118 out of a maximum 120 hence why it was one of the highest in the school so that has confused me @JustMarriedBecca. DD said she her actual mark on the exam paper was 46/47 out of 50.

They measure standardised scores at the end of every term from Year 3 onwards. Whilst SATS are an indicator, the fact they are so prepped for them specifically doesn't necessarily indicate a propensity in that subject.
Better to look at standardised scores over a number of years and then SAT scores to get a full picture.
NFER is out of 140 whilst SATS are out of 120.

I think GD in SATS is 112 so if she's getting 118 it's likely to equate to mid to higher middle of greater depth.

There are children plural at our school (state primary, middle class village in Cheshire not a London hothouse) who get full marks on both English and Maths papers in SATS. As Bunny and Bristol say above, they are SO PREPPED for SATS that it's not surprising they are getting high marks.

She's obviously doing very well and you should be proud but I'd not buy into the notion that SATS give any kind of indication.

frillygillymilly · 22/03/2025 06:42

How to you get standardised scores over the years? I don't believe it's something we have ever been given.

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DarkandStormyNightie · 22/03/2025 06:45

My 8 DD is GD in maths, reading and Spag.

Her teacher believes she is GD in writing as well and has put forward her work for third party assessment so she can be 100% sure on her decision. She told us writing is the hardest to award and once it's confirmed DD will be giving harder assignments, so she wants to make sure it is awarded appropriately. She is very sure she'll be going into Y4 with a GD in writing.

Looking back it doesn't surprise me, DD8 loves to write stories that are pretty sophisticated, devours books and wants to be an author. She said out of the blue she wants to go to Oxford! Told her teacher and she didn't bat an eyelid and said I'm not surprised. On the one hand it's awesome, I'm not going to lie, but on the other hand it's makes me nervous that it will put pressure on her. So many bright youngsters can be crushed by pressure.

She's in a mainstream state primary at the moment (outside London) but will go private for secondary.

MarchingFrogs · 22/03/2025 07:33

NFER is out of 140

No; it's a standardised score, so not out of anything.

whilst SATS are out of 120.

Also no. It's a scaled score, so not out of anything.

The underlying raw scores, however, are out of whatever the total marks available were for that particular test.

Scaled scores show whether a pupil has met an expected standard or not. This is different to the 100 in a standardised test, where 100 represents the average during the standardisation and gives you information on the proportion of the population who achieved a particular score.
For the NCTs, the score of 100 represents the threshold of the expected standard, not the national average on the test. If a pupil scores 100 or above, they have achieved the expected standard. If they score lower than 100, they have not met the expected standard and are still working towards it. In the case of the national tests, the national average scaled score is likely to be higher than 100, since the government targets are for all pupils to have reached the expected standard by the end of KS2. In 2018, the national average for reading was a scaled score of 105, for maths was a scaled score of 104, and for grammar, punctuation and spelling a scaled score of 106. In total, 64 per cent of pupils reached the new expected standard for reading, writing and maths.
https://www.nfer.ac.uk/assessment-hub/understanding-scaled-scores/#:~:text=Scaled%20scores%20show%20whether%20a,who%20achieved%20a%20particular%20score.

@frillygillymilly I suspect the 'end of every year' standardised scores referred to are something like scores achieved in CAT4 tests; commonly carried out every year in private schools and administered at the end of e.g. year 5 in some state schools, but not usually done annually in the latter AFAIK.

Assuming that the mocks were carried out as they should have been (sadly, every so often schools do get found out for not doing this in the real thing), then according to the conversion of raw marks to scaled scores for the year's test used, your DD, personally, has been assessed as being near the top of the ability range. Whether it's a school in a naice area and the scaled score is nothing special in that particular school is neither here nor there (just like a standardised score of above 115 would indicate that she was in the top c.16%, assessed against 'the average used during standardisation', to quote NFER above, for that test).

stolenlullabies · 22/03/2025 07:38

Same as others have said, Writing is the hardest to achieve at GD under the new criteria. At our leafy junior school only 5 kids out of 180 got GD for writing in Y6 last year, a lot were GD in Maths and English.

BiscuitsAndButtons · 22/03/2025 07:44

DarkandStormyNightie · 22/03/2025 06:45

My 8 DD is GD in maths, reading and Spag.

Her teacher believes she is GD in writing as well and has put forward her work for third party assessment so she can be 100% sure on her decision. She told us writing is the hardest to award and once it's confirmed DD will be giving harder assignments, so she wants to make sure it is awarded appropriately. She is very sure she'll be going into Y4 with a GD in writing.

Looking back it doesn't surprise me, DD8 loves to write stories that are pretty sophisticated, devours books and wants to be an author. She said out of the blue she wants to go to Oxford! Told her teacher and she didn't bat an eyelid and said I'm not surprised. On the one hand it's awesome, I'm not going to lie, but on the other hand it's makes me nervous that it will put pressure on her. So many bright youngsters can be crushed by pressure.

She's in a mainstream state primary at the moment (outside London) but will go private for secondary.

That's very unusual to get different tasks if GD for writing. Usually in a Y6 class, if you discount the very neediest SEND you still have children writing at a Y2-Y7 level and most tasks will allow children to work at their own level on those tasks. The tasks I give my Y3s would allow a Y6 to get GD if they were at that level, unlike in maths or reading where you could only ever show you were working at Y3 GD.

DarkandStormyNightie · 22/03/2025 08:50

BiscuitsAndButtons · 22/03/2025 07:44

That's very unusual to get different tasks if GD for writing. Usually in a Y6 class, if you discount the very neediest SEND you still have children writing at a Y2-Y7 level and most tasks will allow children to work at their own level on those tasks. The tasks I give my Y3s would allow a Y6 to get GD if they were at that level, unlike in maths or reading where you could only ever show you were working at Y3 GD.

Yes, I'd be interested to see what they do as well. That's what they said at parents evening. Emphasised by the fact they didn't want to allocate GD to writing until they were all in agreement.

I wonder whether it's setting additional work? I honestly don't know at this stage.

Honestly, this is all new to me so I'm only seeing it from the parents side of the school desk.

To add, it's unlikely she'll be in the same school for all of Year 6. We may move her earlier as she doesn't need to sit the SATs for the next school and can join a much smaller class to progress more at her pace.

JustMarriedBecca · 22/03/2025 09:13

frillygillymilly · 22/03/2025 06:42

How to you get standardised scores over the years? I don't believe it's something we have ever been given.

Ours do NFER end of every term, not every year. I'm only seeing it from the parents side too - there's a chart online where the standardized scores are put on a graph and you can see the national averages.

When I say "out of" I mean that it's not raw scores, they are scores you put in with their age and you get a number which is their standardised score.

Over 130 is rare (top 4%). 140 top 0.5%.
116+ maybe top 20%. Have a look at the graphs online.

NFER defo refers to marking against 100,000 + kids at that age to get a national level. So I don't see how it's not a standardised thing like SATS.

frillygillymilly · 22/03/2025 10:20

@MarchingFrogs but I don't know any others scores apart from the ones I mentioned so
I'm not sure what looking at a graph would do?

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frillygillymilly · 22/03/2025 10:57

Sorry that was in response to @JustMarriedBecca

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MarchingFrogs · 22/03/2025 11:01

You don't need to look at a graph - you can just know that (and I'm sorry, but I do still keep thinking 'with the proviso that the tests were carried out in the way that the real thing should be') your DD is showing 'good' skills in the areas that are being tested. So even if, to trot out a popular mantra, 'SATs matter more to the the school than for the individual', she is doing well academically.

(Sorry, just saw your update that you tagged me by mistake, but...).

As to whether you've been underestimating her, I suppose sort of, if you've always assumed that she was just kind of average, in this area (I'm assuming that you dont mean, Should Ithink more of her as a person, because I've been told that she's doing well at school?, which would be a bit Sad). I do think it's sort of weird that some people seem to be saying that it's not much to write home about, look what percentage nationally get GDS, and if your school has a very MC intake, then definitely unlikely to be special within the cohort etc.

frillygillymilly · 22/03/2025 11:02

Thank you @MarchingFrogs. It was more the reaction of the teacher that surprised me. She really made a big deal out of dds English result. Apparently it was proper test conditions using last year's papers but you can never know as you say!

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frillygillymilly · 22/03/2025 11:05

I do think it's sort of weird that some people seem to be saying that it's not much to write home about, look what percentage nationally get GDS, and if your school has a very MC intake, then definitely unlikely to be special within the cohort etc.

I'd expect that in AIBU where dc are reading Ulysses in the womb but less so on this board to be fair. And whilst I do not think she is special I think top 25/30% is still great 😆

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frillygillymilly · 22/03/2025 11:10

As to whether you've been underestimating her, I suppose sort of, if you've always assumed that she was just kind of average, in this area (I'm assuming that you dont mean, Should Ithink more of her as a person, because I've been told that she's doing well at school?, which would be a bit ).

Absolutely not the latter. I know she is strong at reading but the teacher was like "whatever you are doing at home, keep doing it", etc. I'm not doing anything at home which is probably unusual as so many do tutor for the grammars & privates or just tutor in general here. People become obsessed with it. I guess I felt maybe I should have done extra.

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Tiswa · 22/03/2025 12:01

@frillygillymilly Are yiu thinking that given the fact that she is there without tutoring and her classmates have tutoring and gotten in through the 11+ then yes she probably could have done so

are you happy with the school you have if so these marks are good at getting top set

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