Advice needed on possible ECHP plan as school have basically said they can’t meet her needs

[XJ15]

My daughter started LEY (nursery attached to primary school) when she was 3

A month or so after she started, they raised concerns about listening and attention etc and what they were putting in place to help

Fast forward a few months, they started excluding her a day or two here and there because

1. Violent outbursts towards children and staff
2. Not being able to control her
3. She is a disruption to the whole class

Now this continued on and off until the summer holidays so around 3 months

When she returned in the September (2nd year of nursery before she turned 4) they said she was doing really well and not having any issues until the last week before half term she was getting a bit tetchy

return from half term in November and the whole month was hurting kids, saying bad things and was again excluded

returned from being excluded and understood if she made wrong choices she wouldn’t be allowed back to school. Seemed to be doing ok

return January this year, had a pretty good term less a couple days where she was getting over a fever but no violence it was more anger.

we’ve now returned from February half term and she’s had 4 violent outbursts and is not listening at all.

I have done everything the school have asked me to do which is inclusive of the below

she’s on the waiting list to be assessed for autism (looking into private currently)

had a referral done for OT and she has her face to face in a couple weeks

I’ve been paying privately for her to see a psychologist weekly to help with emotions and turn taking / sharing etc as they were big factors

I went in today to collect information about her school triggers to relay back to the psychologist and OT, but instead of it being a note taking exercise based on their reports with 1 teacher, it was a meeting which took me by total surprise with 3 teachers and without my husband present

last year the head teacher said her behaviour was the worst she’d ever had

they confirmed again today her behaviour is the most severe they’ve had and especially at her age (4)

They have said the controlling and demands are disruptive the whole time and the only time she can focus is when she is 1 on 1 in a different class as she’s always worried about what everyone is doing / what’s going on rather than herself

Now I totally get the violence is not acceptable, the other kids and staff don’t deserve to be on the end of that no matter what, so please don’t think I ever think that’s acceptable. I have daily chats and made a lot of social stories for her to visualise what happens when you make nice choices and wrong ones. I taught her in November to walk away when angry and it worked up until this week.

the school have said she struggles to be in a class of 30 then when dead silent. So I then asked okay so what do you suggest private tutoring to which the head teacher laughed at me and said the borough wouldn’t fund that. I never asked them to, I was trying to ask what do I need to do, what environment would my daughter learn and be happy best in. They then said maybe a school with a unit attached. Again, silence.

I pretty much left there with no guidance what to do, considering all the school applications have closed. Every time I asked so who shall I speak to, schools won’t just say sure have 1:1 or 3:1 I need evidence from the school

”sure we can perhaps write a letter but we’re busy with meetings next week”

I spent the whole day contacting schools with these units asking what to do. They were all so helpful and said she would need an ECHP in place before even being considered so at least I know the next step

should her current school have already applied or suggested to apply for an ECHP considering they’ve pretty much said they cannot accommodate her at that school and I know I can do a parent referral, but if I force their hand to do it because they can’t have her there, is that a stronger application to the panel?

sorry I know this was a long post but it’s been a long year

I just feel like the school want her out as she’s too much trouble to deal with

for the record, yes at home she can be hardwork and testing at times, but no where near enough as school say. At home I am 1:1 of course, but they were delighted when I said I was paying for someone, then when I say well the progress I’ve seen has been great at home and until last week school was ok, they go yes but you’re doing that in a smaller atmosphere. It’s like I can’t win and I honestly feel I’ve hit rock bottom

what should I do?

Apply for the EHCP yourself
We did this after school ‘declined’ to apply as according to the Senco, there were children ‘a lot worse’ than mine (!)
We got the EHCP but it took months. Child had to be assessed by professionals first. The ‘yes’ letter was delivered on my birthday- best present ever.
It made a huge difference
Good luck OP

It's not true that you need an ehcp in place to get support in ms school but you do need a school to be on board .

You can apply for an ehcp online but be prepared to fight! Make sure you have letters from every specialist she has seen and if possible pay for an assessment to speed up the process .

Best of luck

If you can afford to send her to an independent school they can tend to have excellent SEN provision.

They'll have a good department dealing with lots of SEN issues plus the classes are smaller and they have special 1 on 1 areas.

A lot of local independent schools have a very high percentage of SEN pupils which is why the pupils are sent there. Not for academic prowess or networking but because they can deal with lots DC and their issues

Why is this surprising? It is not intuitive at all.

Why, if this is the preferred/expected route, is this information not made available and clear to parents? It's absolutely baffling trying to navigate the world of SEN support as a parent. Unless you already have an older child with a diagnosis you don't know what you're looking for. And then when you do see something you're worried about there's no clear idea of where to go. Unless you work within these systems it's completely opaque how it works. Most parents don't.

It's fair enough if it's not the school's role but how are parents supposed to magically know how the system works if there is no information and communication about it?

What's she like at home ?

Might she be affected by her current teacher ie she feels the negativity and stress from her current teacher causing her to act up that might not occur so much with a different teacher ?

We all react differently to different people so it might be a factor

My heart goes out to you and your DD and I hope you get the advice you need from PP

You're between a rock and a hard place right now

Current School not helping and other schools unable to help without the ECHP in place

Hopefully you'll get there eventually

Use the model letter on IPSEA’s website to request an EHCNA yourself. Do this ASAP.

Follow up any verbal conversations with emails so you have a paper trail as evidence should you need it.

Have the suspensions been formal suspensions? Or unlawful informal exclusions?

Is the funding the school is already in receipt of early years inclusion funding? If you have a specialist teaching service still in your LA, have they asked them for advice? And the Area SENCO?

The LA is responsible for ensuring the special educational provision detailed, specified and quantified in F of an EHCP is provided. This includes ensuring there is adequate funding. EHCPs can be fully funded, but LAs won’t do so unless forced.

LAs can and do fund individual tuition where it is necessary. I am not saying it is in DD’s case. More support and provision may enable her to attend a setting, but it does happen.

That really isn't always the case. Certainly not in my locality. You also put yourself at the mercy of a school which can ask you to leave much more easily and does not have to follow the code of practice for SEN by law (though many do). You also put yourself outside of the scope of LA services such as Ed psych, speech therapy, and many charge parents extra for any additional support they may offer. So please only do this if you have really, thoroughly looked into it.

@BertieBotts nothing about this is intuitive is it?!

When I look back to when my DD's SEN became apparent - all I wanted was some (evidenced) advice on what was up and how to tackle it.

When it came to schools - all I wanted was advice on which in the area could best meet her needs.

Thank goodness for charities, the Internet and private providers.

Or I'd be waiting still!

Because, if you Google 'EHCP', the first question that comes up is, 'Who can apply for an EHCP?', the first person listed is the parent, the second person listed is the child(if old enough) and the third answer is professionals such as doctors or teachers.

If you have done the minimum and found out what an EHCP is, it is right there in front of you.

Having children isn't a passive experience. Parents are active participants!

And then as soon as you mention it to anyone at school they say:

"Oh our LA barely gives any"
"They take years"
"We have to do X cycles of plan do review first"
"We couldn't get one for child with [huge needs]"
"They have to be behind to get an EHCP"
"They don't give them for Y"
"It costs the school £6,000"
"She wouldn't get one"
"Let's wait and see"

The biggest barrier to EHCP isn't administrative, it's processing that people in positions of authority might not have your DC's best interests at heart/might be misinformed/might be assuming what they've been told is true because they've never actually read the SEN Code 2014.

And yes I have heard all those.

And yes DD has one.

It only took all my free time for 2 years of my life!

@Phineyj It's pretty unfair to assume that SENCOs say those things because they've never read the Code of Practice. I know it really well and quote it to my Local Authority constantly. But lots of those things you've quoted are still similar to things that I might say.

"We couldn't get one for child with [huge needs]" "We have to do X cycles of plan do review first" We just had a needs assessment turned down where we demonstrated huge need, simply because he didn't have a SALT report. It's illegal to turn down for this reason and I know that. It doesn't stop it happening.

"They have to be behind to get an EHCP" "They don't give them for Y" "She wouldn't get one" I wouldn't word either of these like that. I would say that I felt it was unlikely to be granted for Y reason, but I would still direct that parent to the forms required for a parental request.

"They take years" They can take years, even though this is illegal.

@ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot even though the LA acts unlawfully, you don’t have to perpetuate those myths and unlawful LA policies. Doing so doesn’t help parents. Many parents believe what schools tell them. Many won’t know what you are telling them isn’t the law.

Parents don’t need to complete a form to request an EHCNA. IPSEA’s model letter will suffice. LAs cannot insist their form is used.

You don’t need 2+ APDR cycles before requesting an EHCNA. You can inform parents the school will make the request/the parents can make the request, the LA may refuse but they can appeal (where the vast majority of successful) and you will support them to/signpost them to places who can help.

Depending on the specific circumstances, the parents of the child who the LA has just refused to assess may want to look at threatening JR if they have the reason [not having a SALT report] in writing. JR often isn’t possible for refusals, but in some situations it can be and that sometimes includes cases where the LA has been open about using unlawful criteria.

Parents may have to appeal, but other children’s needs aren’t relevant. Only the law is. So many parents are incorrectly told by schools their child doesn’t need or won’t get an EHCP, yet the parents go on to successfully pursue one themselves.

Where it is taking years because of the LA breaching the statutory timescales, have you informed parents they can take enforcement action and signposted them to IPSEA and SOSSEN?

Another SENDIASS advocate here, despite some sharing concerns regarding the service, our experience has been positive in moving forward.
In my area, some specialist settings do assessment places for those embarking reception. This may be worth a Google.
The nursery will have a link inclusion partner, who they can reach out to for support if they feel they are exhausting all strategies. It may be worth arming yourself with as much knowledge as you can, reach out to SEND support services in your area before requesting a meeting. Some services may provide initial meeting support.

"You don’t need 2+ APDR cycles before requesting an EHCNA."

This is true - however as an Ed psych if you are in anA where your EP service hasn't been stripped away to nothing and is only doing statutory reports - if you have EP guidance, and it's not an emergency, doing APDR cycles really does help us understand what works for your child and how to help, and therefore you will get a better EHCP that isn't based on a 2 hour visit and a bunch of educated guesswork.

I am lucky enough to work in an LA where we still do a lot of pre statutory assessment work despite LA cutbacks to budgets, because we enabled schools to buy additional time directly. I know that APDR is an incredibly useful process of evaluating, understanding, and honing and it's a much better way of evaluating needs than one off assessments in crisis situations.

I didn’t say the APDR process isn’t helpful. It is. When it is undertaken correctly, which doesn’t always happen. But having so many cycles isn’t a pre-requisite to an EHCNA request. It is not part of the legal test and the myth is perpetuated in order to delay and deter parents.

@StrivingForSleep I know all of this and guide parents to all of this. I do not perpetuate unlawful LA policies. I explain that there are legal criteria but the LA has made X response, which I believe is wrong. Please don't tell me that I am being unhelpful when you haven't even read what I have written properly.

I signpost to IPSEA for EHCNA parental requests, and every time the LA breaches timescales for EHCNA and for annual reviews, or when they're not providing section F. It's pretty much constant, as you can probably imagine, in a school with >60 EHCPs.

@ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot I read your post properly, thank you. You said “But lots of those things you've quoted are still similar to things that I might say.” If you are saying similar things to what @Phineyj posted, you are perpetuating myths unless you are explicitly saying they are unlawful which your pp didn’t mention you doing.

It is good to hear you are informing parents about IPSEA and prompt them to take action when LAs act unlawfully. Many don’t. Even fewer inform parents they can pursue JR and how to do that/about legal aid/that SOSSEN can help with a pre-action letter FOC.

Talk to whatever independent advisory service is in place for your local authority.
If you can afford this arrange for a cognitive assessment from a private Educational Psychologist.

Our la isn’t even doing Ed psych assessments for all ehcp assessments now never mind doing pre assessments.

I have daily chats and made a lot of social stories for her to visualise what happens when you make nice choices and wrong ones.

OP there’s always a debate on here about what’s ‘SEN’ and what’s ’bad behaviour’ because the latter still exists.

Your approach to her behaviour sounds soft, confusing and ultimately ineffective.

Try raising your voice a bit, toy removal, and ‘you have made me very cross’. She’s 4 and needs you to step up as a parent giving her clear signals about her behaviour. ‘Chats’ will not cut it with a child of this age, she needs to see very clearly that her behaviour is making you unhappy and is unacceptable.

I bet the teachers are wishing you would do this too. They’re likely not pushing the EHCP as they agree with the above but ‘can’t say anything’

Regulation 6(1)(d) of The Special Educational Needs and Disability Regulations 2014 states LAs must seek advice and information from an EP during EHCNAs. Any parent whose LA isn’t doing this for their child should start by sending IPSEA’s model letter to the Director of Children’s Services. If that doesn’t work, they can take further action. Similarly if the advice and information is inadequate.

That's not legal.

The trouble is if op isn’t seeing the behaviour at home, if its behaviour at home you can deal with it in the way you suggested but doing that hours after the immediate event that happened at school has no connection. My son is a teenager now but we had similar as op when he was similar age to op daughter, he was diagnosed autistic af 6 and now he’s older he is very obviously autistic. I used to feel really bad as school would say he’s done this, he’s done that, and I went through various things to try and resolve things like punishing him , telling him off etc etc. unfortunately it didn’t work as it didn’t make him any less autistic and able to manage busy, noisy, chaotic situations where he was becoming dysregulated. I don’t think school believed me when I said we weren’t having same issues at home

It doesn't sound like they are being very inclusive

Google the name of your council and 'send parents advice service' and they will help you