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How important is primary school in relation to the development of a child? Is Ofsted accurate?

33 replies

Pavlovthecat · 28/04/2008 20:45

On what grounds do you assess the success of a primary school and whether your child will progress well there?

Is learning level more important than behaviour of children? Does it matter if there are a large number of children with SN?

How do you determine what school's you might send your child to? Are ofsted reports accurate, or do you use other criteria to make your decision.

What if the local school is awful? Is it possible to supplement your child's education, or can you screw up for child's future if your child goes to a failing school?

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CarGirl · 28/04/2008 20:49

I get the ofsted report and read between the lines.

I want to see how they deal with inclusion, bullying, what their ethos is etc

I speak to current and past parents etc.

Not interested in sats results per se although the "value added" compared to similar schools is worth looking at.

I sent my dd to a failed school, she is leaving year 6 with predicted 5a's & b's and is going on to a selective school which looks at academic ability and all round behaviour/attitude/ability/raw ability etc

I try and determine whether my child will be happy at the school and how interested they are in each child regardless of their ability.

Pavlovthecat · 28/04/2008 20:53

CarGirl - thats the kind of thing I want to hear! Well done your DD!

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Sidge · 28/04/2008 20:57

My DD2 is probably going to start school in September at a school that recently received a poor Ofsted report, but will be fantastic for her due to the specialist provision for children with SN. (She has multiple SN).

My DD1 is at a fair school, not a great Ofsted but it's a caring, happy school and she is doing very well indeed.

I think it's good to read the Ofsted reports but also take them in conjunction with a visit to the school, chats with parents, and how you feel about the place. Large numbers of children with SN wouldn't put me off as I would think it is probably a good caring school that can offer a lot to children with additional needs.

laidbackinengland · 28/04/2008 21:00

Visiting the school is vital and perhaps talking to other parents whose children attend. Ofsted reports are snapshot of a school and do not tell the whole story in my opinion.

Pavlovthecat · 28/04/2008 21:00

Sidge - I recall reading a report about schools with large numbers of SN and it indicated that children without SN would more likely flourish in this environment too, as there is more educational support/funding to the school overall, and individual classes that need more staff to manage the differing needs, therefore all children receive more intensive support.

I wondered if this is true?

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CarGirl · 28/04/2008 21:02

Her best friend went a different school (her local one though) which is so much more pushy. My dd had hardly any homework yr 3 & 4 whereas her friend had loads, they are of a similar ability and are probably going to get on a par in their sats. It kind of makes me think they are who they are??????

Sidge · 28/04/2008 21:09

Pavlov - I'm not sure exactly but I would have thought that where there are many children with statements, there will probably be more resources available to that school.

I know when my daughter starts, the school will be allocated extra funding to pay for her 1:1 so that a teaching assistant is not being "diverted" from the other children. Also any extra equipment needed for her will be funded by the LEA and not the school, so the school isn't out of pocket. However the funds and resources allocated as a result of her statement have to be used for her, not just to pump extra money into the school's coffers!!

I think all children can benefit from having SN children in the school though, especially in terms of acceptance of disabilities, and empathy and thoughtfulness. To me, it's important that we normalise disabilities and additional needs, and by sharing the school environment with all children we can promote that.

(Sorry went off on a bit of a tangent there )

Pavlovthecat · 28/04/2008 21:17

Sidge - not at all, this is the kind of thing I want to hear.

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nooka · 28/04/2008 21:44

I think that the key thing is to visit the school and get a feel for the ethos. Whether it is the right environment for your child is something only you can judge. Another key factor is how welcoming they are, and how much you like the staff there. The two schools near us with the best SATS, Ofsted and reputation didn't appeal to us at all. One because they were so snooty, and the other because it was very discipline orientated and we thought our slightly off the wall child would spend his life in trouble. The school they attend (well not any more as we are now in the States) has a large amount of childen with SN because it has a unit for children with challenging behaviour. We thought that might well benefit ds as he has some differences (he did use their multisensory room as a clam down zone for a couple of years for example). All our local fiends send their children to different schools, and they all seem to be doing well (we all have our gripes, but I think that's par for the course really).

I think that going to a failing school is problematic if that means that the school isn't caring, the teachers are demotivated or the children aren't leaning, but I'd want to check into whether the school is really failing, and doesn't just have a difficult intake. Looking at value added tables is really worth while - one of our local schools has poor raw results, but very good value added results because it includes the estates where our local council puts all their refugees, so a large number of children come pat way through their education and have a lot of catching up to do. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the right school for you, but you do need to look beyond the numbers.

CarGirl · 28/04/2008 21:48

When you read through the ofsted report it tells you what it is doing poorly at, and what it is doing well/ok at. The one I chose failed because it was in debt! However it scored really highly on class participation, lack of bullying and all the stuff I thought was important.

Sidge · 28/04/2008 21:57

Nooka - I so agree with your second paragraph in particular. My DD1's junior school doesn't have great overall results, but when you look at the Value Added results it brings her school up to being one of the best in the area. The school catchment has a lot of military mobility, as well as children from families in temporary accommodation, so they start at a disadvantage. But as the teaching is good they catch up well.

Pavlov - I think many people believe that if a school has a high % of SN children it means the teaching staff will be too busy with the SN kids and neglect the learning of their children. But if the children have statements then there will be additional resources (including staff) for the school funded by the LEA.

I suppose if you have a lot of children at a school with SN that aren't statemented, then the school may struggle to allocate resources. They should publish their stats though, I think they state on the Ofsted report how many statemented children as well as children on School Action and School Action Plus there are.

Orinoco · 28/04/2008 22:05

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Sidge · 28/04/2008 22:13

Orinoco we have the same problem with secondary. Our catchment one is dire, truly awful. DD1 is going there over my dead body!!

We have 18 months to decide what to do about her secondary education - may need to sell a kidney to pay for private schooling

Orinoco · 28/04/2008 22:17

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Pavlovthecat · 28/04/2008 22:20

Sidge - you talk about the value added results - so, a great school in terms of bringing those who start at a disadvantage up to a good level. But what of those who are already at a good level. Does this indicate that the teaching is so good that all children benefit? Those who flourish already as well as those who dont?

So, what if the only school available is not a great school. Would you move? Would you go private if this was an option, or would you supplement your child's education even more than you would normally do? Or just continue as you would anyway?

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Orinoco · 28/04/2008 22:30

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Pavlovthecat · 28/04/2008 22:32

Orinoco - for primary school? seondary, or for both of these?

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Sidge · 28/04/2008 22:37

Heck I dunno Pavlov, I just muddle along!!

Seriously I think if a school has all pupils at a good level then the results should be truly outstanding if the teaching is excellent. (Just me trying to think logically.) If the teaching is average then the children will still do well, but maybe not brilliantly.

We have a dilemma re DD1s secondary education as I said earlier - we can't afford to move, and the local secondary is so bad it's not funny. Even though DD1 is very bright and we would support her a lot at home I feel the poor school would be so detrimental to her. Not just educationally but in terms of peer influences, and socially.

So we are even resorting to looking at private schools, using an allowance from DH's employer (he is in the Forces) to finance some of the fees. Don't know where we'll get the rest (Orinoco I'll join you on the street corners!) but I am determined to find a way. To me education is so important, but that's not just passing exams but having aspirations, drive and ambition. And a good senior school can enourage that as well as getting them through their GCSEs.

Orinoco · 28/04/2008 22:39

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AgonyBeetle · 28/04/2008 22:47

Okay, I've had three children in three different primary schools (not all at the same time) in varyingly rough parts of inner London. All are doing/have done pretty well -- dd1 got into one of the London grammar schools and got a couple of scholarship offers from private schools too, fwiw.

So here's my take:

(1) The school needs to be okay. It doesn't need to be amazingly fantastic, but it must be not terrible. There are levels of crapness in (some) schools which no amount of parental support can compensate for. The place needs to be orderly enough that the children feel safe and happy, and that most of the teaching is at least reasonable.

(2) The child needs to have a chance of finding a reasonable number of like-minded friends. This is not about accent or hairstyle, council flat vs. owner-occupied, but about attitude. If your child is bright, eager and keen, there need to be at least a small handful of other kids who will understand where yours is coming from. The same applies to language/culture, I think -- being the only English-speaking child in a class must be a pretty tough call.

I think those are the only things you can really assess from the outside. The other things that will affect your child's experience are the ones you can't really predict until it's too late the dynamics of the particular class that your child is in, and the fit between your child, the class and the teacher. That needs careful watching a child can be really miserable in a class of fundamentally nice kids if the dynamics are wrong; conversely a child can have an essentialy positive experience in a class where only a third of the children go into Y3 reading at an age-appropriate level (that was dd1's class!).

You can ask some awkward questions of the head and the teachers at the looking round a school stage, which might give you some indications of how they will deal with problems that might arise, but you can't really plan for every eventuality. Enthusiastic teachers who love kids, can keep a class enthralled, and who can listen to parents are a major plus, wherever you find them.

If there is a large number of kids who are working at a very low level, or a massive spread of abilities (dd1's Y3 class had quite a large no. of kids who were reading below Reception level, and a couple at the other end who were reading Lord of the Rings and having opinions on The Iliad) then you will need to keep a reasonably close eye on what your child is doing to make sure that there are no glaringly obvious gaps (your child fails to learn his/her tables, for example, or never masters joined-up writing), but also to make sure they are challenged with interesting stuff to go beyond the fairly dull offerings they are likely to encounter in every day classroom life. This is fairly easy and fun to do -- there are loads of fab activities to do with kids outside school, and there are loads of workbooks on sale that you can use to keep their maths or writing vaguely on track.

The main thing to really watch out for is unhappiness -- if a child is persistently miserable then you need to take that seriously, which may involve making a fuss, or even moving schools. But that is no more likely to happen in a rough school than in a precious or academically pushy 'good' school. Persistent bad behaviour (your own child's!) is also a red flag.

I think people can get far, far too hung up on academic content at primary level -- for infants, you could teach them all the academic stuff in a couple of afternoons a week, for juniors you'd need to branch out a bit, but it's not brain surgery. If you like the atmosphere, like the way the staff interact with the kids, the way the kids interact with each other, and the whole 'feel' and 'mission' of the place, that's probably as good an indication as any you'll get. And much more reliable than Ofsted reports.

Pavlovthecat · 28/04/2008 22:48

Its interesting to hear everyone's views.

I am asking the questions as we are considering a move to a house from an apartment, we want a garden, and the chance to expand our family, should we decide we are going to do this in the future.

We have been looking at places where we have found some good houses within our price range, but where the school ofsted reports are not great, and the school numbers appear to be quite large (300+ for 4-11yo).

DD is a bright child so far (only 22 months so not ready for school just yet!) and of course we want her to flourish.

It seems that many of the schools in many areas are satisfactory, with 3s and some 2s, and only a handful are good in many areas. Those with outstanding are ones with such a large applicant numnber that liklihood of dd getting in is slim.

The reality is that by the time she is in secondary school we would be more able to move to an area where there is a good school, but for her primary education, there just does not seem to be so many great schools.

Hence I wondered how people decide.

We are ruling out the areas where the schools are failing in terms of children's overall behaviour, and lack of pastoral care.

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Orinoco · 28/04/2008 22:52

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nooka · 28/04/2008 22:52

I'd agree with you on the secondary front - ours is very poor, for no very good reason, except that the next local one is very good, and there are an excess of religious schools also in ou borough so maybe the poor school just gets the left overs? We also will not be sending our childen there (it's also single sex which I don't like). Anyway on the primary front the other thing I would do is see if you can be in the vicinity of the school at going in and coming out time. The better school around here had really poor behaviour whilst the one we chose the children although loud seemed happier and nicer. The best school is so well behaved it's not true!

Pavlovthecat · 28/04/2008 22:56

AgonyBeetie - thank you for that excellent post. You summed up so much of what we think it shoud be like, but worry that it might still be all wrong.

I agree with pretty much of everything you said, so very eloquently too!

Its quite early for us to be thinking about her primary education, as she is only 22 months, but where we move, we will be for 5 years (our plan), so want to make sure we dont mess her up educationally, or socially, but at the same time, want the right family environment for us (garden, space, more family) and its a balance we are having to learn about quickly as we will be buying in next month or so.

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Orinoco · 28/04/2008 22:59

Message withdrawn