Times tables

[NewUser1111]

Silly question probably but when the curriculum says kids ought to know their times tables, exactly what is expected of that knowledge? Is there an expectation of v quick recall? Are they supposed to memorise them?

DC is in yr2 and knows most of their 2, 5 and 10s but often has to work them out by, say, counting in 5s rather than just knowing them off by heart which is what I remember doing. I’m not sure if I should be pushing them to speed up?

The yr4 times table check is quick recall, both multiplying and dividing.

If he can learn them as quick recall, he should do that.
I've tutored maths for many years and the amount of secondary maths that relies on times tables knowledge is large.
It is far easier at that stage if you 7x6=42 straight off without having to count up/work it out, especially when you are having to use your brain's processing power to tackle other aspects of the question.

No, it's not.
It is purely multiplication, e.g. 5x9=?
They get 5 or 6 seconds to answer and then on to the next question.

Counting up in 5s is not the same as recalling multiplication facts. They should be able to answer for example, 9x5, 6x5, 11x5 randomly, within 5 to 6 seconds, preferably without using fingers (which, whilst it will help in class, won't be quick enough during the test).

My mistake, my DDs did a trial version which had division questions in a few years ago!

I grew up in the states and remember having daily training 2nd grade (Year 2) to do as many times/division problems between 1 and 12 as possible in 120 seconds. These were done on transparency and wiped cleaned daily. It worked out to about 1 second per problem and most of that was writing.

It's been extremely useful in my daily life and career to be able to do this.

I plan the same for my children.

Seems that in Year R, they're simply working on counting 1-20 forward and backward at this point. DD gets some addition/subtraction problems in afterschool club though.

My dad was big on times tables. He made me learn by rote from 1-12 then get them right fully recited 3 mornings in a row. If you made a silly mistake like "2 fives are 12 - wait! No they're not it's 10" you had to go back to day one.

I could recite a fabulously long poem essentially but I had no concept of number.
4 fives are 20 had zero connection to 20/5 =4

I think in year 2 it's still ok to still be counting up for the 5's. The 2's and 10's are a bit easier. Year 3 is when they really get serious about times tables. See if the school have TT rockstars....gets them practicing and working on speed.

Primary school maths is ridiculously unambitious. No reason not to work on all the times tables at home now - don't wait for year 4. I had DD learning hers in reception and it has helped her streak ahead in maths because she has a much better sense of how numbers fit together.

I wouldn't push. They will know the time tables by the end of primary. I learned my time tables around 10-11, along with my classmates. I am from abroad. In my country of birth no one says "I am bad at maths". I think the UK maths curriculum is to blame by knocking confidence out of children by demanding too much at too young an age

My Y2 daughter can do 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 and 11 times tables. Quick recall is expected but she’s not quite there yet so sometimes has to count to get the answer. They also do some division but that’s not tested yet. It’s a private school though so not sure how that compares with the state sector?

Encourage your child to do the best they can. I found mine couldn’t really recall them until closer to Y5. Just about their memory.

but it’s a massive massive help to their mathematical work if they can learn them and then know them out of order and then the division facts too. Huge help!

End of year 2 they should know 2, 5 and 10 and if possible 3.

Wow! Brain development wise most are not ready for times tables in reception.

Can you still get those rulers that had them on the back? I learnt them by rote but I'm sure just having them there on my desk helped them sink in.

It had dinosaurs on the front to be more fun....

@Talkwhilstyouwalk That reaction is the sort of thing I mean. Are there brain scans that prove that they can't learn the concept of multiplication at 4? It's covered in Numberblocks so it can't be that compex. Children can learn plenty if you are focused and ambitious for them and, crucially, if you are prepared to teach them.

They can if you push them to yes. But they learn imore quickly and happily when they are ready to learn it.

Thanks all. Our problem is DD is very resistant to the idea of learning them off by heart. (Which is what I did I think) I feel like I should be able to make this fun somehow but am failing comprehensively. She battles me at every turn and as a consequence is only making slow progress

@NewUser1111 I used to get DD to recite hers when she was riding her bike - a bit less intense than sitting down to it. We now use TT Rockstars, which is good for practice but doesn't actually teach the tables as such, it is just for recall. Doodle Maths and Doodle Tables are also good but you need to pay for them. I don't know if that helps at all (DD loves maths, which is not universal!).

I would find out if they have TT Rockstars as suggested by a PP.
We have it at my school and it's really helped my DD.
We have competitions on it, either whole class ones or whole school ones. Even the teachers join in! It's quite addictive.

There is an orchard toys times tables game which we are going to try. They do introduce times tables to them by counting up in increments, so I wouldn't worry too much, especially at this point in the school year.

Also, teach her the easy ones first, 2's, 10's, 11's, 9's (look up the finger counting trick for those). And there are some good rhymes to help with some as well, my 4 year old knows that 8x8 = 64 because I ate and I ate til I was sick on the floor!

Massive advantage to know times tables. I was shocked they didn't just learn a few daily at school first thing like we did years ago.
I found the best way for my two sons to learn times tables was to pick say 5 random ones, then every night recite them until they remember ( could be several days!) then gradually add more random ones but keep going over the old ones too (keeping a written list so you know which ones you've done). Some of the harder ones we did in a funny voice or rhymed with a funny word so it stuck.

Problem with saying at school I didn’t know tables till 12 or abroad they don’t learn them so early, is that we are not abroad but in today’s English education system, whether we agree with what it teaches or not. Not passing the tables test in year 4 (age 8-9) will be a knock to confidence and then the assumption after the tables test (by the gov curriculum) is that kids have an instant recall and lesson objectives (on fractions etc) set by the government mean children not knowing their tables will find it hard / loose enjoyment / possibly fall behind.

There are some good apps, try Squeebles or Hit the Button.

that worked better for my kids than me teaching them.

or Percy Parker songs

@sunnyday81 There is no pass/fail to the year 4 test. There are 25 questions and the gov't has repeatedly refused to say what the children should be aiming for.
The thing is, because the test is online, even children who know their tables perfectly well won't necessarily get full marks because of a possible slip of the finger or a tech issue. They can't self-correct as once they've hit return, that's it.
I suppose it could be argued that the prospect of the test might spur some on to make sure they learn them, there are many more who are disheartened by a poor score.
Bottom line is, a fast and secure recall of multiplication facts is invaluable to their progress in maths, going forward. Not saying you can't get by with other methods (eg counting on fingers) but it's much better if you have instant recall.