Any primary schools in SW London that do not use rewards and punishments?

[Lily7050]

My son started Reception in September 2023 when he just turned four and so far I feel the system of rewards (stars, certificates) is not quite appropriate and disorientating for such young children. I have recently come across Alphie Kohn books (e.g. Punished by Rewards) and Gordon Neufeld theory of attachment. I think their approach would be more appropriate especially for very young children.
I must explain why I think rewards are not working for young children.
In YR they have children who turned 4 just before the school year started and others who turned 5 shortly after they started YR. At this age the gap in development is huge. I remember in October or November the teachers were giving certificate to a 5 year old pupil for writing word "meatballs" when my 4 year old still did not have a proper pencil grip. He is still not able to blend phonics even though he knows and can pronounce all of those they were taught so far.
Another thing I noticed my son makes attempts at homework, like trying to read, with the thought to get praised by teacher. I am trying to explain that he needs to learn to read because it is the skill required for everyday life and not for getting stars and certificate.
I wonder if there are any primary schools (state or private) in SW London that use no rewards/no punishments approach and try to motivate young children with the process of learning.

Intrinsic motivation is something that is learned over (a long) time. Most children like praise and rewards and teachers give out both on merit depending on the child, not every child would be expected to write 'meatballs' as per your example and the reward may not have been for spelling the word but for persistence or independence or overcoming reluctance to mark make etc. If I went to work every day and my boss didn't pay me, but wanted me to bask in the satisfaction of a good day's work, I'd soon quit and find someone who rewarded me properly. I'm sure there are schools who don't do either, but it's not an unusual or unfair system when done in an equitable way.

You're unlikely to find one. Having a goal is motivating for children. Teachers who use rewards fairly can be very successful with them. My child with ASD wasn't motivated by them in the slightest, but largely, children seem to be.

Alfie Kohn cites very old research that has never been replicated.

There is not a child on earth who doesn’t read or do sums because someone destroyed their intrinsic motivation by giving them a sticker.

There is not going to be a school in the land that doesn't have a behaviour policy that includes disciplinary procedures aimed at managing and reducing any unwanted behaviour.

My DS is in Reception and bloody loves a star sticker! His teacher is brilliant at handing them out for accomplishments in the context of the child though - so one of the 5 year olds would get one for reading a book by themselves; my summer born 4 year old would get one for blending basic words. They also get them for being kind or helpful.

I'd look into home schooling

You're taking this much too seriously. One of my kids came home with a "star of the week" in reception for writing a whole oage full of independent sentences, but another one got a head teacher's award for "excellent full stops" (ie her actual writing was rubbish, but she'd really got the hang of a full stop!)

Every week they'll pick a kid or two and give out some sort of certificate for something they've done well. For one child that might be writing meatballs- this doesn't mean that your child has to write meatballs to get a certificate!

I work with many children with PDA profiles, for whom explicit rewards and sanctions are usually counterproductive. I still have to have plans in place to make sure they (mainly) do what they need to do to be able to learn and don't do things that stop others learning or make anyone unsafe.

Our school doesn't have stars or rewards. We are SE London.

@WASZPy please can I ask more about your approach to PDA children? Both my DC are autistic. My non-PdA autistic child responds really well to rewards (immediate, special interest-based), but as you say rewards and consequences are useless and counter productive with my PDA child.

@UpWithABang I think it's probably very different parenting and teaching. In my classroom provision is multifaceted but a few important things include:

making engaging in learning 'risk free' and not a 'judged' activity

e.g. I don't mark their work- I analyse it and assess it but the feedback comes through what I teach them next- not judgement loaded words or marking. I try to put enough scaffolding in place so every child can feel successful with every piece of work I give them, but I never say 'well done' or 'I like' or anything else that implies having jumped 'my' hoops. Nobody has to answer in a group discussion if they don't feel able to.

giving a route 'out'

e.g. I know they won't always be able to do what I want. They are able to opt out freely. There is no punishment for this in that no adult will comment on it, they don't miss anything later (like playtime) or have to catch up. However, I do ask that they take a quiet space with nothing bar a beanbag or mat- so it is boring to opt out. I just don't offer a replacement activity. There is very little opting out in practise, but I think knowing the option is there helps.

language

no direct instructions, no 'you need to', 'you must', 'I want you to' etc- I just model, then share with scaffolding, then provide appropriate practise.

It's a very specialist setting though, far from mainstream.

@UpWithABang I appreciate none of that is helpful at home when the shoes have to go on now because there is an appointment to get to. I generally have the luxury of being able to wait.

I do have some children with physical handling in their evacuation plans if they may not be able to follow the direct demand to leave the building in a serious emergency, for example. It's a different kettle of fish when you don't have time on your side.

@WASZPy oh my gosh, I'm excited by your post!! I desperately want to ask where you teach, but of course that would be outing ...

Thank you so much for your list of approaches, it's brilliant.

It sounds like you facilitate engagement with learning through a high level of scaffolding and personalisation as your core offer, plus lots of demand-free language etc.

This is really helpful to read. I am currently trying to understand what the longer term route forward for my pDAer is. My instinct is that half-time within MS school is possible, but that the learning in this setting would be primarily social learning (massively valuable), and that 1:1 bespoke teaching would be needed for half a day to make progress academically. Currently everyone in the LA looks blank when I try and describe this. I've explained there is no specialist within reach that could meet needs, so we need to create a bespoke approach within MS. School have the flexibility and progressive vision to go with a split arrangement like this, but they cannot yet conceive of what this could look like logistically. All they can imagine is the LA funding them not-enough, and them being expected to do miracles with not-enough.

@Lily7050 apologies for hijacking your thread! Just to explain - children with a PDA profile of autism often cannot cope with a reward/punishment system, which is why I was interested in your thread. Am now excited to have come across a teacher who is working with PDA children!

To a pp, intrinsic motivation is not learned, that's the whole thing! It can be supported and protected for sure but unfortunately can be easily destroyed, and overuse of the systems OP refers to can do that. When I was in school, 80s, we had none of this so I always think it seems strange that many schools use it now even though it is quite an old, behaviourist approach that has many flaws. Fwiw I'm a primary teacher and in 20 years haven't used these systems and have never had any big classroom management issues. Currently working in a v disadvantaged, inner city school (Ireland, if relevant). In fact, those systems can actually cause more issues with challenging children than they solve.

Good luck OP, my own dc go to a school where they are used at times and I've let it go by and large as it hasn't caused them any real problems and it doesn't feature too heavily in their day. I think it's a shame and I've pointed out my issue to the principal but after that I've let it go. What we do at home is more important overall and there are benefits to a child understanding different people do things differently etc. My youngest, and v well behaved, child commented that the teacher was using sun and clouds to 'get them to do what she wants' , children see it for what it is. Same child never left the sun but he still wasn't impressed. I do think, going by MN, that teaching and parenting in the UK, seems to be v behaviourist based. Perhaps MN isn't a fair representation but that's what comes across.

For what it's worth to add to your consideration, I find 1:1 is often very challenging for children who are pda. It's so, so hard to reduce the perception of demand in that situation.

However, I appreciate that specialist provision for groups of able children with complex autism is very rare.

That sounds great, v child-led.

@UpWithABang these types of provisions for exist. Often called specially/additionally resourced provisions (SRP /ARP). They vary according to LA but in some the ratio is 50:50 mainstream and provision. They are often aimed at children with ASC and don’t always work for those with a PDA profile as there are a lot of demands but the social communication aspect is often very positive.

I know you teach in a specialist setting (and you sound like a brilliant teacher) but I also think some of these are really useful for dealing with a NT school aged child. I really like the first one in particular around removing the judgement from learning. Thank you so much for sharing!

The thing is that this approach will work for all the children in the class so it is ideal for inclusion, instead of having different approaches for different children. I have lots of sensory toys available for all and interestingly, it's only one or two that will help themselves to them and will be working away but with some play doh in their hand etc. Access to them really seems to help.

It’s not a reward or encouragement.

The same encouragement you would give a child for taking their first steps or sitting on a potty!

What methods do you use at home?

Have you looked at the Steiner schools? There is one in Hanworth

Check out Liberty Woodland School. My child is currently in one of their affiliated nurseries and we're very happy.