8+ St Paul’s Advise, please

[GloriaMPT]

Any mums out there with boys at St Paul’s?
My boy is going to try the 8+ exam with very little preparation. Would any mum who has been there and got a place for his boy be willing to share her experience with me?
Thank you very much 🙏🏻

Thank you very much for your honest reply. I couldn’t agree more in everything you wrote.
Unfortunately, we only started with some tutoring 2 months ago, so it will be a miracle if my little boy gets in. But you never know…
Really happy to hear your son is happy in his school, that’s the most important thing.
Thanks again for your reply and your time.

All the best for 2024!

Gloria

Follow with interest

I haven’t shared any tutor details. Be aware mums there are tutor scams in this website going on!! Do not trust any tutor you haven’t met!!

Why is he super upset aged 7 ( or even 6) that he hasn't sat for St Paul's?!
Just send him to a school he's got into.

As a parent there, I am quite disappointed after my son joins. Most of the boys are heavily tutored to get into the school, which I understand, but then most continue to do so after joining (most notably in Math, also quite a lot in English, and some for other subjects like French). You can easily tell by looking at the ethnic mix. The junior schools (especially those joining at 7+ and 8+) are mostly Autumn born. Chess, Math olympiad etc are all heavily tutored by some. Quite a portion of the mums are very competitive in almost everything.

Even if your son is the exception who can get into with little tutoring, think twice if it is an environment you like.

I suppose this doesn't only apply to SP, of course. So do your research not just on MN but through your own network of friends.

Are you a current parent at the school? Could you say anything more about it, why do boys there have ongoing tutoring? Does the school encourage this? Do boys who don't have ongoing tutoring fall behind as a result? Do you think the boys are happy there?

while the perception might seem like this a lot of it can't be true and this narrative would also scare future parents into an arms race (or not applying).

We have friends at SPJS but we use WUS. SPJS are not the strongest at chess (they would only need 3 strong chess players to do well at NPSCC and they generally don't do well). SPJS get a comparable PMC bonus round showings to WUS/KCJS.

In WUS there is an even distribution of birthdays and tutoring only happens with a minority of the kids.

The difference that might make it seem like this is how the homework is dealt with which may make SPJS parents look for some extras. But whatever is happening at SPJS it isn't reflected in any advantage in cross school metrics (competitions, inferred CAT scores etc.)

Extra tutoring at WUS is widespread and if some metrics look better than SPJS, it probably means it is even higher.

I would take everything one reads on here with a pinch of salt, you don't know peoples motives. Westminster and St Paul's are the 2 most sought after schools.

High demand does not mean high suitability. On the contrary, the schools that are most sought after are the ones with the most pushy parents and the most additional tutoring, fueled by the tutor and prep business that is prevalent on mumsnet.

I knew about WUS, that's why we didn't apply and tried SP. Now I know it is not much better, maybe the same. WUS, like SPJ and KCJC, are full of autumn-born boys.

I had been on MN for over 1 year, and I have no ultra motive, but still, I waited after the deadline for 7+ and 8+ passed before posting. I just want prospective parents to think carefully, and to reach out to your network of friends with kids at your target school, to complement the info on MN.

QE and Wilson's (for 11+), WUS, SPJ, and KCJ (and in this order) are the schools you should think about twice to see if you like that kind of environment.

With respect - This is the internet and anyone can pretend to be anyone for a purpose....you may already have a child there....or you may be trying to put people off. WUS and SJPS are institutions that have been around for centuries, they are not full of Autumn born children, in fact they are fairly even. If you have a bright child, you one should try if circumstances allow. They are not full of Olympiads and Chess masters, in fact SJPS is super sporty.

Thank you all very much for sharing your experiences. We do not know a lot of people in London so it is really helpful to hear from parents who have their boys there! 🤗

Do you have child in any of these schoos? It is a known fact that 7+ and 8+ of selective schools are full of autumn born boys. The advantage against a summer born is huge at this age (but by 11+ the advantage become very little). They’ve got pictures with the boy’s birthday stucked on the classroom board! Go take a look!

And there are loads of tutored math Olympiad and chess players (who did very well) . How can anyone without intensive training do well in these competitions? These are so competitive.

Also, SP is not super sporty, it has its fair share of non sporty or even nerdy boys. It has a very wide range of boys with vastly different interests. If you look at the results of their fixtures, it is pretty obvious it’s A B and C teams are very strong and usually win, while its bottom EFG teams very often lose (and sometimes by big margin). But then, if your son is not sporty, it’s absolutely fine and very likely he could find his group of friends.

WUS/SPJS/KCJS have an even distribution of birthdays. We go to the birthdays with peers outside of WUS.

DS is a summer child at WUS and has been comparable academically with winter borns since Y3. Winter kids dominate sports that rely on height. As a parent of a summer born you tend to track this stuff.

I have to really push back on the chess as we follow the top junior players in London and they're at WUS/KCJS.

SPJS tend to beat WUS at most sports. When you go to watch the games it's mainly the largely pool of kids -- they choose their team from close to 100 vs less than 50 at WUS. They're also really good at swimming compared to WUS (KCJS are also excellent swimmers).

From a WUS point of view SPJS are good at sports.

@elij spot on.

It is very helpful to read these messages here! I just read the winner list of the 2024 PMC bonus round. WUS has so many gold, silver and bronze winners. My son's school only has one gold and a few silver and bronze. I wonder if it is because WUS has extra support for their students to take this exam, or if it mainly relies on additional tutoring at home. My son got a 13+ offer without preparation. We have not decided whether he should go or not. I worry it would be too competitive. He will be boarding. We don't have plans to have tutors.

SPJ mum here of a boy in Year 4. It is NOT a know fact that SPJ KCS and WUS are mostly autumn born.. it is a widespread myth.. I have the little red book with me with all the date of births of all boys at the junior school this year... in Year 4, 20% of the boys are summer born. I am sure it is exactly the same at Kings and WUS. Unfortunately sometimes some parents are set back by those rumours and think it is not worth for their children trying it which is a shame really..
Tutoring is frown upon by school - last year the parents of one boy were called to school because the teacher suspected the boy was being tutored..

SPJ boys do various activities after school mostly sports indeed with lots doing as much as 3/4/5 evenings a week. There is a lot of sports during the day as well (4 days a week as part of the curriculum) + various sport clubs (basket, swimming, football, fencing, etc)

Some boys do chess (during the day and maybe outside of school) but I agree this is more one strength of WUS.

So far my DS has been very happy there. Happy to answer any question via PM or discuss by phone if you are envisaging it.

I wouldn't say it's tutoring per se. It's in the culture and scheduled. All these kids either did PMC the year before or FMC in Y3/Y4.

The school just releases a schedule for school year with dates for PMC (every child is entered). They usually mention PMC a week before first round suggesting looking at a past paper. But kids will be talking about it after the 8 week holiday break tbh.

FMC scores are higher than most pre-preps and I suspect this is 7+/8+ gating.

Thank you, Elij! The kids in WUS did so well in the maths competition. My son is smart, but he got a silver; only one gold in his school. I do not know if he will be okay if he joins 13+. We will think about this. :) How about teachers at WUS? Are children and parents generally happy with this?

Please ignore the PMC stuff. Only 48 went through to the bonus round and most were from Y6.

Silver in the bonus round is great your son is more than capable based on that.

The teachers are great and the school is amazing.

I second that. My boys were at the WUS (one summer born) and they did not tutor in any subject nor anyone we knew. This doesn’t mean tutoring at WUS doesn’t exist, probably more common in the lower half since everyone is so competitive given nature of an academic school, but I think for the top ⅓ of boys most likely not.

I can understand why some SPJ, WUS or KCS parents would want to mislead you about the advantage of autumn born boys. But I do want prospective parents to prepare better, and to have realistic expectations.

I do have the red book (like all SPJ parents) which list out the birthday of every SPJ student. It is very clear about the autumn born advantage, especially for lower forms. In Lower 1st (Year 3), those who got in through 7+, of the 50 boys, 10 were born in September and only 1 was born in each of July and August. It gets better as you go up the year.

I can only imagine it is similar at WUS and KCS.