Is it normal to have this reaction - 11+/13+?

[Marquez35]

Hi all,

Are there any other parents having these feelings and emotions at all during this crazy time of 11+/13+ exams.

My son had an exam today (first stage - english, maths and reasoning) and came out saying he doesn't think he did well at all and looked downcast by the whole thing. I am now just questioning:

1. God I hope he manages to get into A school.
2. Does this mean all these top schools just want ridiculous clever children and therefore looking at the 'top schools' is a con as it doesn't really tell you if the teaching is that good if they are so selective. I know in state schools they have a progress 8 but independent schools don't have that I dont believe.
3. Stupidly feeling like I have failed him as from what he has told me about the tests, a child who has done well is not naturally clever but must have had extra help at home or through tutoring to get past the year 6 curriculum.
4. Is this all worth it??? I looked at all the other parents outside freezing thinking what are we all doing. Feels like the whole system is just ridiculous. Also if my son doesnt get in to this school today or others how will this impact his self esteem and confidence.

Anyone else experiencing this during this time?

Have you looked at schools that don't need an entrance exam? What does dc want?

The schools often seem to assess on the curriculum beyond where a child has got to at school, so they have to be prepared/tutored for that. It does mean it is tricky to do well with no prep and isn't necessarily the best assessment of true ability. I agree with you that the top schools have clever, mostly hard-working pupils, so top exam results are not that difficult to achieve! I guess the benefit is being in a class of similarly able students who are working at a more similar pace, meaning more can be covered beyond the core curriculum. The downside is the kids at the bottom of the class are still doing very well, but may be disheartened.

Good luck to your son and I hope he gets a place he is happy with.

Are you applying for selective private schools from a state primary? Has he been tutored at all? Either by you or by a professional tutor?
I think it is very difficult to get into a top indi from a state school without a tutor as lots of the maths will be beyond what they have learnt at school.
Do you know where he sits in his cohort now? Which schools are you applying for?

If you can get the data look at how many applicants they get per place as it gives an indication of your DS's chances. For the competitive schools your DS needs to have put in extra work, generally speaking (although it may depend where you are in the country just how competitive things are). If you are in London it can be very very competitive. That said, how he feels he did might just be a reflection of his personality. It is possible he has done better than he thinks. Was he doing the ISEB test for example as that becomes progressively more difficult if they get the answers right? If he ended up with difficult questions he might have been doing well at the beginning. If he didn't do much preparation don't be disheartened. Have a back up plan in place and don't focus on the lack of success. You can always rubbish the system to him if he doesn't get in and move on.

I agree it is not worth it. I wouldn't put my child through it, personally.

Look for a good school with a good reputation that doesn't require all this.

@Marquez35 , was your ds at Hampton this morning? If so it is a tricky exam, the English paper can use extracts that are gcse level and the maths paper is designed to test the scholarship candidates (very bright ds who's ability is years above their age). Best of luck to your ds, is he at the ability level that you would have considered Tiffin and do you have easier options coming up?
(Im a current parent at the end of the school). It's a good tip to remind your ds that all candidates take the papers including all those wanting scholarships so it has to be tricky, other schools like Kingston Grammar have a separate scholarship paper.

@Marquez35 , also you might want to move over to the secondary education section that has lots of posts on the current entrance exams.

Thank you all for replying to my post. We have come from a London prep school and the school has been very good (or so I thought) at getting them ready for 11+/13+ admission exams. We have done some extra work at home but no tutor. In his school, he has been fairly near the top in his year group but he isn't in a hot house school.
I think I was a bit naive about how competitive, competitive schools are. That your average smart 10 year old would be able to get by. I also have been sucked into the whole aim for a 'top ranking school'.
We were looking at boys and co-ed London day schools which all seem to be over-subscribed.

After reflecting this evening I definitely think my aim of schools has not been the right choice. My son is fairly bright, but the schools we are/have been looking at their assessment of academic ability through these exams is not going to work or show his true potential unfortunately.

In my view is not realistic for any 10/11 year old without additional tutoring so it is beyond natural ability which I don't agree with for selection. I wish they could put all their names in a hat and choose them that way and then we could really see what is a top school.

So if anyone knows of any great London schools that have great teachers, you have seen great academic progress while your child has been at the school and provide children with a nurturing confidence building environment....and the admission process isn't like trying to get a job at NASA please recommend! Thank you

@Marquez35 , if your ds is in a London prep school he already has a massive advantage over many of the candidates who sat the exam today because he has been taught much of the content at school and taken part in mocks. 50% at least of the Hampton intake at 11plus is from the state sector and these dc have never had mocks at school or been taught verbal reasoning in the classroom - it's all done outside school. Plus your dc will have a reference written by someone who knows him and is happy to write the reference.

To answer your other question my dd went to a private girls day school and had an amazing education with loads of value added. Most dc get into a school that suits them, you rarely hear of someone who didn't get an offer at 11 plus (private schools).

Thank you@tennissquare I appreciate the reassurance, we shall see how it all plays out. Just felt so guilty that I had put him through it and that if he didn't get in how it would affect him as he is a very happy child and didnt want the disappointment of not getting into a school to change that.

I had the exact same thoughts when my daughter was going through the 11+ process.

She's now at Mount House (having switched from a different independent in Year 8) and she's very happy at the school. It's a lovely environment and she has also improved immensely academically.

If you swap over to secondary education there is some feedback on Hampton exam today and 2 of the posters have ds who have already passed the 10 plus for hampton (they sit again for a scholarship).
I'm sure your ds is sitting a range of schools and you have a back up or he can stay where he is and try the 12 plus.

Leave it until 13 plus and try for boarding schools or ones a coach ride away. Do you really need to be in London?

We are in SW London and going through this at the moment but with a DD. It’s a horrible process and it really doesn’t serve anyone well IMO, including the senior schools.

I have various ideas for how the process could be improved, but funnily enough no-one has asked me 😆

Chances are that if your DC is towards the top in his prep, and if you have applied to a range of schools academically speaking, then he will get an offer(s) somewhere. Unfortunately it’s a bit of a lottery whether it’s the one(s) you’d prefer or not. But they are all good schools. Including the less academic ones - as you say the academic performance is more a reflection of intake than any extraordinary teaching.

Please do explain to your DS, if he doesn’t get an offer, that the schools have multiple children of a similar standard applying and so have a tough job knowing who to offer to - it doesn’t mean he wasn’t good enough, it can come down to a couple of points here and there. I have been open about this with DD, she knows it’s unlikely she will get offers from everywhere and that’s ok. (As long as she - please god - gets an offer somewhere we are happy with!!)

My 11+ tactic with my daughter was to apply to a wide range of schools, so as to include schools with less harsh entry requirements. This way she gets a sense of achievement and confidence from passing the exams rather than try for schools that have higher competition for places than Oxbridge 🫣In the end, she got into 5 schools (was even offered a small art scholarship at one). It really boosted her confidence and actually sitting many exams rather than just one or two, made her less nervous because she already knew the drill so to speak.

Any chance you can still apply gor a few schools where your son is very likely to pass just to ensure his confidence is boosted a bit?

In the same boat, OP. Having prepped my 6 year old through the 7+ last year and now working with the 10 year old this year on the 11+, it seems like a flawed system. The London 11+ is something else!

I did the grammar tests almost 35 years ago and it didn't require a year's worth of tutoring. Similarly, DH and his siblings attended what are considered 'super selective' London independents, 40 years ago. Again, no tutoring required and they went from the state sector. In contrast, the exam papers that DS is currently doing include maths that I would have been doing in Yr10 and extracts from Bram Stoker's Dracula for comprehension 😳. The expectations for the selective schools seem ridiculously high, yet they keep telling parents not to tutor the children. You have to jump through hoops to get in, but once you're in, the work goes back to an age appropriate syllabus. DS who did the 7+, now that he's in a selective school, is not really doing anything more challenging or to a higher standard to what his peers in other schools are doing. His class is just the equivalent of a top set in other schools. I really don't feel the schools themselves work any kind of magic on the children to gain amazing grades. A lot of them would have got those grades in any case. The ones that don't look like they will, tend to get managed out.

Tutoring is big business in London - some parents at DS's school pay up to £90 for 45-minute zoom lesson plus revision camps over the holidays, costing thousands. When this kind of money is spent, the pressure on children to succeed is immense.

I did initially get sucked into the idea of the 'super selective' schools but since the 7+ I've realised it's not the be all and end all and there is so much hype. A bright child will succeed wherever you put them. I feel if DS10 doesn't get offers from these selective schools, it means they're not the right schools for him and I wouldn't want to suck the joy out of learning with intense tutoring just to get in and then continue tutoring for the next 5 years. I've applied to a couple of selective and non selective schools and DS knows there is no pressure.

Unfortunately where we are there aren’t any non selective independent schools. And some of the state schools are selective too. So there doesn’t seem to be an option. I know a few people who have moved away and their main driver was to avoid this circus.

My Dads went to a private school in South Hertfordshire. Loads of girls from north London avoiding the “circus” for a more gentle life.

Dads!! DDs.

There are lots of less selective private schools in London too. Did you apply to a range of schools?

Oh that's harsh. I don't know what the answer would be in this case, other than relocating, but that's a big upheaval. DS10 is currently at a non selective prep owned by Dukes. They have a few senior schools you could look at.

This thread may be of interest...
Non selective private schools in London that put happiness first? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/4590033-non-selective-private-schools-in-london-that-put-happiness-first

I saw that thread, thank you, it is good to know there are schools out there not taking the super selective route. Unfortunately all those are quite a trek from us and DD can’t handle a long commute for health reasons.

There is now London Park (Duke’s I think) close by - will be interesting to see how it develops and I certainly have it in mind if the usual selective route doesn’t work out.

Look here for a list of all of the private schools in London then you'll need to look at each school website to see the results.

Unfortunately though if your child is already in Year 6 you've missed the boat for submitting the application for Sep 2024 entry for the "selective" ones you describe.

11+ private schools list - 11 Plus London

Mount House has an entrance but only to test the kid’s level rather than be selective. It’s a really nice school.

To give you some hope, my friend's son scared the living daylights out of her when he left his one assessment test saying he had found one of the nvr sections too long and had not finished, and he found the comprehension very difficult. In reality he had scored highly for the most selective school in the county. Do not always rely on your child's immediate reactions.