A query about maths...

[seeker]

When do they learn how to add up by putting one number under another and adding them up - hundreds, tens and units? Or don't they?

I showed my 7 year old how to do this today and he got very excited about it. I just hope I haven't blighted his education by showing him outdated and discredited methods!

Hi - ds is just 5 and we haven't got to this yet but what I've been hearing from parents for a while now is that they do it all on one line - somehow !! No idea how or why. All I know is that they don't do it our way anymore!

Will be watching your thread with interest.

Think its year 4 they start doing that. No reason why they shouldn't do it earlier, so long as they understand how to do it.

I work with 7 and 8 year olds and we teach them a variety of methods for working out all number sentences
We are currently doing adding using a number line. Have done looking for the nearest special friends numbers (number bonds)and partitioning. Can't wait until they get on to the 1 number under another it seems so much easier!

Just you wait until they get onto chunking!!

Its worth asking at your school for a leaflet showing the methods they use. Ours produce some locally also issue a government one.

Generally the idea is to teach different methods for solving calculations so people will approach concepts from different angles and then be able to use the method they feel most confident with.

It fine to show him your method, so long as you let him show you the one he's experimenting with now. If he gets the chance to explore then he might find he prefers yours or a different one.

I remember tha all on one line method from dd. And chunking. Oh Lord - time had drawn a veil.... Ds says he uses a number square, which seems seriously limiting to me. What do you do when you have two numbers that add up to more than 100?!

I remember teaching DS how to add in columns in reception and thinking 'isn't he clever' .. couldn't wait to show teacher

and then she explained all the different methods they use, most of which don't make sense to me like the adding columns from the left instead of the right (ie not units first)

but the approach to teaching a number of ways to the same solution seems sound to me

wtf is chunking?

oh god I don't think I want to know

Only problem with teaching them the vertical method is that they need to have a very good grasp of place value before they do this. Also this method does not really help them to develop mental speed like some of the earlier methods we teach in the numeracy strategy.

Before pure vertical methods with carrying (IYKWIM)number sentences where the tens and using are added up using partitioning are usually done. This way they know that the 3 in 432 is actually 30.

And yes chunking is the work of the devil. (Old fashioned short division methods are much easier to carry out but don't always foster real understanding)

I think my ds1 was in Primary 3, so would have been seven.

I don't think any of the methods really create real understanding until they are ready to understand - at which time it doesn't matter what method is used, they "understand" the concept of number.

It seems to me that at this stage the quickest and easiest way to the right answer is the key!

Shoot me down for an old reactionary if you must!

I'm with you Seeker. Teaching children lots of methods may work well with the very bright ones, but it confuses my reluctant seven year old. The word partitioning sends a shudder down her spine and brings a tear to her eye.

I think that's the problem. I agree with them understanding what's going on and the concept of number, but I don't think all of them are going to "get" this at such an early age. And some of them never will. They still need to be able to get the right answer! My ds does seem to understand the concepts - when I showed him the vertical method with carrying he got it straight away and did lots of them to prove it. Poor dd at the same age floundered badly, got confused and lost, and it is only now in year 7 that she is starting to get some idea of what's going on.

I don't understand that adding numbers in a line thing either - but when I tried to show the putting numbers under each other and carrying things technique to DS2 he was baffled.

However I couldn't even understand the question in his (Yr5) homework last night, so have resolved to concentrate on literacy issues instead .

Also with you seeker. Have just been "banned" by teacher from using old fashioned method at home for long div and multiplication. A method he understands, uses quickly and accurately and in fact uses to check the far more laborious chunking system, which they will waste spend a year trying to teach him. When he can already do it another way.

Shouldn't be so judgemental I guess. Must fall in with the new ways.

To be fair I will add this: I know people who have older children who have found that finally finally these methods come into their own when they are doing Y9 maths and above. They see things more clearly apparently. I'm holding on to this thought.

I'm not sure they ever really do the vertical addition (not in the same way as we would have been taught).

I quite like the chunking method - it really helps with mental arithmetic. I used to use it when I was at school, but would never have admitted it to the teacher because it would have the same as 'impure thoughts' in those days!

Ask the school what methods they use. DDs school do a maths workshop for parents so that they can learn the methods used. We are told very strongly not to use our methods as they are confusing. (This coming from a school which uses gelosia - aaaargh)

My DS Year 2 is struggling with maths and he has to do all his addition and subtraction on one line. I mentioned to his teacher that he may find it easier to do it the traditional way, but she said that they do not do it that way til they are older, as it does not promote an understanding of numbers. She gave me a number chart to help with his subtraction, but I feel that this does not help his understanding of numbers at all as he does not know why he is counting up and down the lines of a chart, and can easily make a mistake doing this.

I guess I would prefer at this stage for him to do accurate addition and subtraction, and assume that a greater understanding of numbers will come over time.

I bet that in a few years time things will move back to the old methods.

MrsW - lol at 'chunking' DS4 (now nearly 11) had to do this last year. He explained it to me, his teacher explained it to me and it almost gave me panic attacks!!

He is near the end of Yr 6 and I have shown him long division, long multiplication etc and they, in Year 6, have finally started to columns of figures. He thought he was the dogs wotsits when his year 5 teacher got him up to do long division on the white board. Thats another thing 'white boards' what a crock of ... whats wrong with one of those blackboards that roll round and round -

White boards are soooooooooo last year We use an interactive active board

shame the kids cant write a 3 or 5 the correct way but boy can they click 'n' drag!

Frankie, two years ago "they" decided they'd been teaching maths the "wrong way" and changed things again. That just about accounted for my son's entire journey through primary maths.

I learned to add up using an abacus! (I was 5!)
I was a real diva at thwacking the beads around and the whole classroom was full of "click click" and not of the mouse and computer kind.

I suppose this makes me "out of the ark" in technique terms.
DH does it all in his head and it drives me BONKERS!
He says numbers have colours and patterns and he just "knows" the answer.

And you can't teach that in school I bet!