KS2 French - is this normal?

[BreatheAndFocus]

DC has just started Y4. Short background: she did a year of French in Y3 yet didn’t recognise basic French conversation, eg I asked her her name and she had no idea what I was saying. Even when I modelled the question and answer, there was no gleam of recognition at all. I had no idea what they did. When I asked DC she said they learnt the colours.

Now at the start of Y4, her new teacher has sent home a course plan for each subject for this half of term, including French. But the French plan is very short and very weird. I covers two not especially common or useful French phonemes, that’s all. No conversation, no mention of topics like shopping, travel or anything, just this strange phoneme thing. It reminded me of phonics in Reception a bit and seemed to bear no resemblance to any French course I’ve ever seen. I’m so disappointed.

Last year, apart from ascertaining that the class hadn’t been taught the basics - saying your name and asking/answering how you are - the only piece of work I saw was a worksheet that had very obscure items of clothing on (think ski goggles, think ear-muffs) that DC had had to colour in and draw arrows on. I get the impression this sheet was printed off at random (Ooh, look - clothing!) as DC didn’t recognise or know any everyday clothing items at all and said they hadn’t been taught them.

So…..what’s your KS2 child doing in French? Are they following a course? Can they speak/understand some basic French? Is this strange, rubbishy French ‘teaching’ normal? I did look at the National Cuuriculum but that implied they’d be learning the kind of thing I was expecting them to learn.

Yes, I’m going to speak to the school about it, but I’d be interested in your experiences as to what’s normal. IMO, this is poor.

Primary level MFL teaching is very very uneven. Very few schools have language specialists on the staff and usually the content is delivered by the class teacher, who may not actually speak any of the target language. Some schools have better provision as they bring in MFL specialists as PPA cover.

Bluntly, if you are a French speaker you would be best teaching your child at home. If it gives you any reassurance, secondary schools expect children to be novice learners of MFL and will start with the basics of the chosen language(s) in Year 7.

The only thing I can definitely say they've done is learn "head shoulders knees and toes" in French.

DD have had lessons in Greek, German, Spanish and French depending on what teacher they've had and what school they were at that year

They start again with the basics in Yr7... and secondary schools ignore what language they were apparently taught at Primary school.

Mine learned nothing. Chose to learn Spanish at secondary as had been put off by the poor experience of French at primary.

DD has only had 1 French lesson in year 3 but that seemed to focus on how they pronounce French vowel sounds and some seemingly random words that included those vowel sounds. I was a bit surprised, as I was expecting 'hello how are you?' or numbers or something. Sounds like it could be a similar approach, although it's very early days, so they may be carrying on to those things.

It's a shame he only had one lesson as using phonic awareness as a basis for MFL teaching is considered best practice. It was a major feature of the 2021 Ofsted research review for MFL and will be an important component of the revised MFL GCSEs for first teaching from September 2024. It is great to hear that it is filtering down to primary schools.

That's good to know! My post wasn't clear, they have only had 1 lesson so far as have just started year 3, so I presume it will carry on. When I though more about it, it makes sense. My French pronunciation is poor because I'm not very clear on the sounds even though I have a GCSE in it.

Our state school teaches French from reception, has a French phrase every day, and the class all go through it together.

In year 1 they are expected to be able to carry out simple exercises such as writing out what things are and having a basic conversation.

Ah, that makes sense! Apologies, I didn’t read carefully enough.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/curriculum-research-review-series-languages/curriculum-research-review-series-languages this is the Ofsted research review I mentioned. @BreatheAndFocus you might be interested to read it to understand why phonic awareness is considered more important than conversation for novice learners.

Thanks @ThanksItHasPockets I'm interested to read that.

Thank you. I’m totally not expecting a language specialist, but I maybe wrongly assumed most teachers would have enough French to teach some basic conversation 😔 I’m not sure if a count as a French speaker as I’ve lost a lot of my proficiency over the years (haven’t been to France for about 20 years!) but I do like the language and can speak and read some (I’ve got GCSE French).

See, that comment about secondary schools is almost as depressing. Why oh why are we so bad at teaching languages? Children absorb languages far easier at younger ages and aren’t as self-conscious. Yet languages in primary schools just seems like a box-ticking exercise. Even if they bought in the whole course or just used videos, it would be better than this weirdness.

Yr 3 - Plan for half term says they will learn family vocab and practice asking and answers questions about their families.

I think it’s nice that your DC has had introductions to a variety of languages at least, but there seem to be so many missed opportunities to teach languages better.

This is what worries me 😞 I think DC would be interested in languages if taught properly.

Yes, that sounds very similar. Very strange. I wonder where the idea ones from? It’s almost like they just transferred English phonic teaching to French in a kind of technical way, but with no accompanying actual language and conversation. After a year of French, I’d expect DC to be able to say their name when asked. I went through all the little basic phrases I learnt at school, asking if they’d done/heard any of them and they said no (and I believe them).

But would that be where you start? A year of French and DC can’t answer any simple questions, or understand very basic phrases.

That sounds much better 😊

Phonics is not considered more important - it's listed in that document on a par with vocabulary and grammar, and then the discussion makes it clear that the phonic approach is for learning to read and write in the language.

It's similar to English - phonics are used to teach reading and writing (and it's clearly the best way), but that is to a group of pupils who already speak and understand the language.

In learning a second language, you need to learn to speak and understand as well, and that is where simple conversation is important, and is where first vocabulary is introduced. As is the confidence that the pupils can communicate (it has utility) and depending on what topics are used, something of the culture.

Then when the sounds of the language have been learned (and ideally have formed the belief that they are effective learners) they can be shown how those sounds are written (and how to write the sounds.

As an academic exercise, that all you learn is the sounds, it would be arid to the point of being counterproductive

Thank you for that 😊 Going to read it in a few minutes with my coffee. I suppose in my head, I imagined the French teaching would be a mix of fun and basic conversation, alongside careful teaching of the French sounds. It’s not like they’re intensively doing the phonics, it’s just they seem to be doing random things and when I finally get a plan it has the phonemes on (two) and nothing else at all. Last year I’m not aware that they did any phonemes. They learnt colours, coloured in a sheet of obscure clothing items, and did another sheet with the name of vegetables on. That’s all apparently. It seemed to be infrequent and haphazard.

Sounds more like what I was expecting.

In learning a second language, you need to learn to speak and understand as well, and that is where simple conversation is important, and is where first vocabulary is introduced. As is the confidence that the pupils can communicate (it has utility) and depending on what topics are used, something of the culture.Then when the sounds of the language have been learned (and ideally have formed the belief that they are effective learners) they can be shown how those sounds are written (and how to write the sounds.As an academic exercise, that all you learn is the sounds, it would be arid to the point of being counterproductive

Thank you @AuntieStella 🙏 That’s what I feel. I know some French and a few other languages too at a very basic level, and getting into it by speaking and conversing is what I was expecting. Obviously everything else is important too, especially as you advance but I was shocked my DC didn’t recognise any basic conversation at all. French should be exciting and fun at that age to inspire them to learn more and to learn other languages in future.

You mention all teachers would be able to speak French - but I haven't got GCSE French (my school did german). So, if I was a primary teacher, any French lessons I taught would be exceptionally poor.

It's NOT something that is necessarily general education - other people may have learnt Spanish.

Yes, I'd agree your experience of primary language teaching isn't unusual. We need language specialist in primary schools if we want decent primary language teaching. And then that needs linking to secondary teaching.

That was poor phrasing from me and you are right that it is of equal rather than greater importance. It has been largely ignored for many years, however, and the prominence on the curriculum is new.

Statutory language teaching in primary schools is less than ten years old, and schools have not been given much support to implement it. We have a vicious cycle of low uptake of MFL leading to fewer languages graduates, leading to fewer MFL teachers, leading to poorer provision and even fewer children taking up languages.

I think my DC got more than yours - hello how are you colours and numbers in Y3 with French but not much more and most didn't stick with them.

I was really worried when we moved to Wales - as even in a predominately English speaking part they'd been "learning welsh" since nursery. I turned to https://www.duolingo.com/ and BBC online welsh learning programs - they only knew very basics - they weren't behind at all.

DD2 and her friends have chosen French at GCSE - they got not French just Welsh at primary - and are currently all competing against each other on duolingo.

My DD has just started Y3 too and had one French lesson, also on French vowels.... my french speaking SIL thought this was a very odd way to start learning french :P
I believe our school uses a scheme called Rigolo?

Not sure what the scheme is, but we have now been given the plan for this term. Apparently they will cover vowels, greetings, numbers to 10 and classroom instructions.