Which primary school??

[Icylemontea]

Hi all ,

DS will be applying for primary school this year and I just wanted to get everyone’s thoughts on this.

We have two primary schools which we quite like close to us. One is an outstanding school with well above average reading, writing and maths. The other is rated good and they have average or below average results. It would have been a no brainier on which one to put as first choice but after speaking to people, we now have second thoughts. There is someone we know who has two kids - one went to the outstanding and one went to the good school. His review is that the outstanding school is very academically focused while the good school tries to develop the child into a more rounded person - so doesn’t just focus on the academic side of things. I am torn because I want him to do well academically (I was very academic focused as a child) but at the same time, I want him to have fun and have a happy childhood. Just wondering which school you would pick?

The other dilemma is whether to go private. Is it worth the money for primary school?

Have you looked round them yet and met the headteachers?

Keep an open mind until you’ve visited the schools.

Yes agree with the others, I would visit and see if you get a feel for one, including staff interactions. That’s we we did and never looked back :)

Go visit both schools. Mine went from and outstanding to a good due to a move. The good was much better all rounder for the children. Less good at the official paperwork.

Visit both. Gut reaction is important.
How likely are you to get a place at each one?

Definitely visit & get a feel for both schools.

FWIW we went for the good & v nurturing over the hot house outstanding academic (which is also now good after a more recent ofsted…the other local outstanding is now inadequate 😬)

It has been amazing for my dc. They are academic enough to achieve good results at primary pretty much whatever (dc1 just left y6 with top standardised score for all SATs) but what they’ve also been able to do is develop lots of other interests, passions and been known and loved for themselves as individuals - their results have been incidental.

Also do look at how long ago the schools had their ofsteds. As above on our local schools, the framework has changed a lot and outstanding in 2014 is not the same as outstanding now. I know one local school not inspected since 2011 on their 4th head since then!

But gut feeling is the way to go.

I agree that you need to look round. We have two outstanding schools nearby and then a good and an unrated new school. I looked round them all and liked one of the outstanding ones a lot but not the other one. I put the unrated one as our second choice.

Funnily enough the outstanding one we liked (and both dcs go there now) is supposed to be more academic and the one I didn't like is supposed to be more nurturing. There was another mum on the tour in raptures about it, but I just didn't get a great vibe. No regrets about our decision at all. Our kids are doing well in all areas

Yes, visit definitely.
We had a similar choice at secondary level. Chose the 'less high achieving' school. Never regretted it for a second. Pastoral care was brilliant. Their special needs provision was fantastic (practically non existent in the 'better school - non high achievers were side lined). The teaching was great. Bullying was dealt with swiftly. The kids were very happy. They left with excellent A levels following fulfilling and genuinely happy school careers.
(These were both state schools. We never considered private at all. I appreciate people have their reasons. It's a personal decision. I know someone with three kids in a local private school - primary. I taught at the local state primary they would have attended. It was a brilliant, happy school. I find their decision bizarre. But, each to their own.)
Good Luck deciding. (Oh, and if you can - get involved with school life - parent's groups/events - then you can enjoy it too!).

Several things:

How old is the Outstanding Ofsted? Over 70% of previously Outstanding schools have recently been downgraded.

How big are the year groups? In a smaller year group, a few children have a big impact on results. Catchment affects results hugely. The greater depth (ie above expected) children in my class would get greater depth where ever they went to school. They are naturally able and have supportive parents.

Many parents want great results then get cross in Y6 when there is a big SATS focus. Part of great SATS results is playing the game, and this is worth considering.

As a teacher, I'd look at results but not Good vs Outstanding. What Ofsted looks for in a school is not what I necessarily want for my children (eg testing at the end of each history/geography/music/science unit for example).

Until you visit you can’t get a feel for which would potentially suit your child. You also need to look at the admission criteria. Check that you meet the criteria, especially if one or both are over subscribed.

As others have said, you definitely need to visit both with an open mind to see which one feels right for your family. Never just go on an Ofsted grading or even results as they definitely don't tell the full story.

During a spell of supply work the year before Covid, I experienced teaching in a wide range of schools. Some of the outstanding graded schools were hotbeds for stressed staff and anxious children and I definitely wouldn't have wanted to send my own children there. In contrast, there were a few RI schools (at the time, since graded good) which I would have happily cconsidered for my own children as the things Ofsted graded them down on at the time weren't the be all and end all for me as a parent.

What Ofsted are looking for isn't necessarily the same as what parents look for in a school. Ofsted grades can also be quite old and things can change pretty quickly in a school, especially under new leadership, so I would definitely take the dates of the inspections into account, especially if they were pre-covid as not all schools adapted well during this (ongoing) challenging time.

Are the staff friendly and welcoming? Is there a community feel? Do the children feel happy and safe? Are all needs met? You definitely need to visit both before submitting your application to gage a first -hand impression of the answer to these questions.

Don't forget to check out the wrap around support at both schools. The gate opening time at primary schools can vary a lot too - we had a brief spell at one that opened at 8:55 which was just crazy for anyone with a job!

I'm curious what you mean by this. Surely most schools run from 9? I've never worked anywhere that opens the gate before 8.50 and children need to be supervised til the bell rings. If you have a job that starts at 9 or before, you have to use wrap-around care.

I agree that you need to visit, but also read the full Ofsted reports. The actual text can be quite illuminating whereas the grade in isolation means very little.
One year my children's primary school was downgraded to "requires improvement" but if you read the report in full, particularly the parent survey, you would have got a very different impression than what those 2 words suggest. It was back to "Good" next time with very little noticeable change from the parents and pupils' perspective, as the criticisms had been mainly over admin type stuff. Virtually every parent and child loved the place.
On the other hand there is an "Outstanding" school not far away that I wouldn't send a child to if you paid me. It's very target driven and is known locally for having very pushy parents and a bit of a bullying problem. I know quite a few people who removed their perfectly nice and able kids because they just didn't fit in.
Seek as much info, from as many different sources as you can and build up as broader picture of all your options as possible - don't rely on any one thing. Good luck!

8:35am mine. Never known any school to open after 8:40 except in the country areas of south west which was barer to nine.

@Confetto

One primary we used briefly opened the gate at 8:50. The one we used the most opened the gate at 8:30 (closed at 8:40) and there were staff in the playground so you could go to work - still quite a white knuckle drive to be at your desk by 9:30. No breakfast club available (not financially viable for any business) but there was an after school club.

The first school only had an after school.club for 40 kids despite being a 400+ kid school - the waiting list for a slot on Monday was 2 years when we moved to the area - hence the appeal to get into the other school.

Ironically both schools went from excellent to failing, one largely due to an incompetent headmistress who destroyed the school. It's been turned around in 3 years with a new management team.

Most schools around here start at 8:45 as standard, gates open from 8:40.

I agree everywhere is different but 8:50 for a 9am starts seems pretty late.

Around where I live the primary, secondary and college times are slightly staggered so alleviate traffic... so Primary is 8.55-3 30. There is a very cheap (£2) breakfast club though. (And Asc is £5).

Visit both with an open mind. If you grammar schools, beware that high results might be tutors not the actual school.

I wouldn't send my child to a below average performing school...

Go and take a look at both. I'd look at why one performs below average. More disruptive behaviour from kids? Poor teaching? Below average means somethings going wrong.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

The outstanding rating was rewarded in Dec 22 so fairly recent. We are in the catchment for both. I will definitely visit both schools but just worry that even if I feel the environment for the good school is better, I will still steer towards the outstanding school just because of their academic results. If the good school had average results, I feel like I would be able have more of an open mind but can’t lie that below average results does scare me a little..

This is not necessarily true. Below average results could be for all manner of reasons as children come from very different starting points. One school may have far more SEN or disadvantaged children for example. From a mathematical point of view there obviously has to be an 'average', where 50% will fall above that and 50% below. That doesn't automatically mean that those 50% are bad schools who are doing something majorly wrong. As pointed out above too, parents in more affluent areas are more likely to pay for tutors too, which is highly likely to boost the average grades of those students.

Results are just one part of a huge jigsaw when deciding which school is right for you child (although it is sadly not common for some parents to write a school off based on data or Ofsted grading alone).

The school my kids went to had poor scores. It was a small school and parents with SEN kids understandably liked their kids to go to a small, friendly school.. the school got more TA because of it. If the size of the year group is 12 and 3 have SEN the school scores may be below average. We also have travellers children's due to geography. It was a great inclusive school. But maybe not the choice of all parents.

Definitely go and look round before deciding, and any other potential options. We had to list 4 schools. From looking at schools online and Ofsted reports I had expected our school applications to be:

School A
School B
School C
School D

Ended up with:
School D
School A
School C
School E

We ditched school B altogether after looking around and found another one to list.

100% this. A local outstanding here is v good at telling parents with dc with send that they can’t meet needs = they don’t have the impact of dc with send on their results. Vs good school which welcomes everyone but in small cohorts has a big impact.

The historic results of past pupils arent going to distate how your child does. For all you know they may have had outside of school teaching

I think most seasoned primary parents will tell you not to give more weight to Ofsted over your actual vists to the school and meeting the staff. They don't know your child.