warning - soapbox alert!

[clarinsgirl]

My DS is still over a year away from starting school but I'm thinking about what to do. There is an outstanding (according to OFSTED) school in our village and I would very much like him to go to school with local children (I was brought up in the middle of nowhere and hated that I didn't live near any of my school friends).

So the obvious choice is the local primary (and since both of us work, practically, this also makes the most sense).

My problem is that the school is C of E. We're not religious and don't go to church (and have no intention of starting). It feels very wrong to me that the only school in a fairly large village should be religious, (requiring a signed letter from the village vicar in the event of over sub-scription).

I dare say that no such letter would be required but it just doesn't sit well with me that state schools should be affiliated to the Church.

Let the debate begin.

It doesn't sit well with me either.

Anyone else have a view?

Personally, I think there should be a complete separation of church and state, all schools should be secular, and people should choose for themselves whether to bring up their child in a faith or not.

Ah, so I'm not alone. That's my view too. The village schools in all neighbouring villages are also C of E so my only options to avoid a church school are private or City schools - neither of which appeal.

We have a different system up here in Scotland, where the "default" state schools don't need any religious affiliation, but there are still separate RC schools. But here you are at least in a catchment area for one of each, so at least it doesn't restrict your options quite as much. I'd still do away with the whole idea though

If it wasn't for the church there proabably wouldn't have been a school there in the first place, it was probably the church that paid for it to be built etc

Christy - I'm sure you're right! But now we live in a modern secular society and the government has a responsibility to provide schooling - not the Church.

I very much doubt there would be a school in your village if it was left to the state!
I don't think Britain is a truely secular society either.

It would probably make for a complicated argument about ownership. I think we have something similar up here in that the RC church gave up their schools into the state sector, but on the understanding that the state would continue to run separate RC schools. So it would be tricky for them to say "we're going to stop that now" without major arguments...

The village school is entirely funded by the state now and has been for many years so the school exists in the village now thanks to the state.

I take your point that society is not totally secular - but neither is it Christian (or any other faith) which makes the original comment from amuminscotland very valid i.e. separation of state and education so that individuals choose how to bring up their children.

I can completely understand you POV, it does seem wrong that you have no choice and if you really feel strongly than it may not be an ideal school for you. However, don't forget though that the "default" religion of all state primary school is still "broadly christian" as this is our "state religion" and all schools have to have some form of common worship. Our local village primary (not C of E) sings hymns every day in assembly, has a religious assembly (e.g bible stories or local vicar popping in) every other Friday and has 4 "assemblies" a year in the local village church (harvest festival, christmas, easter and leaver service). There is a huge link between the primary school and the church, which are the 2 most central organisations in the village (well maybe excluding the pub ). Not making any moral judgements just trying to point out that you may not find you local C of E school any more christain than a state village primary school. You really need to find out how much religion pays a part in the school day and compare that with alternative schools, you may be surprised at how little difference there is. Alternatively, there may be a big difference and then a clear choice might present itself.

Thanks for your information - playingthewaitinggame (love the name!). The point you raise about collective worship is very interesting - I hadn't realised that. I would guess that the C of E school is not that different from a state one. I just find it very hard to take that a my DS could be denied a place at the school of choice, which is funded by our taxes, because we are not church goers.

I should maybe be clear here that we are in fact bringing up DS within the Christian faith (though he can choose for himself whether that's something he believes in or not), but I think it should be our decision to take him to church and explain our views, not something which is assumed by default, and certainly not something which determines whether or not you can get your child into a school you would prefer. Schools should teach about religion, so that children have an understanding of what it's about, why it matters so much, etc, but it should be up to families whether or not they do religion.

And to be clear - I have no problem with the Christian faith or any other - I just don't think that it is the role of the state to decide - it should be individual choice. I have no problem with DS attending harvest festival etc providing that it is part of a balanced education. My problem is the compulsion. From what I have learned today - the issue is not so much state v church schools, but the intervention of the state in requiring collective worship etc in all schools.

I have a broad experience of primary schools in my capacity as a primary school teacher and a parent. I think it is likely you will find one of two things:

1. the C of E village school may not have any strong religious overtones. My children went to one. They went to church a couple of times a year but all that happened there would have happened in an average school assembly anywhere. The children enjoyed the experience of going to church though, and many parents would attend the event and it contributed to the village community feel.

2. Most primary schools have a broadly Christian ethos even if they are not designated church schools. For instance, my children now attend a non-church primary school and they still say grace every day before lunch.

I don't mind about these things. I am a lapsed practicing Christian so sort of in the middle of the debate. But I have seen the inside of many primary schools and one of the things I love about them is their caring sharing ethos, which is often expressed through a loose kind of Christianity.

OO I agree with both of you! I suppose you could probably say my faith was "broadly christian"! I know that means I am not christian, but I do have faith in a god/spirit and agree with much of the teaching of the church, as well as living in predominately christian manner. In fact I have a very good christian friend who says I am more of a christian than a lot of people that regularly attend her church! I am yet to be convinced with the whole shebang of christianity (although my mate is working on me slowly) but its organised religion I tend to have issues with rather than faith .

Regardless of my personal beliefs, I do not think schools should have default religions but agree teaching of religion and religious tolerance is important. However, I suppose as our state is so entwined with our church that our entire political systems take christianity to be the default religion. The queen is the head of state and church, as well as defender of the faith (not various faiths, the faith, meaning christianity). With this in mind I suppose it makes more sense as to why this happens in schools, that doesn't mean that its not time to change things though

Thanks Dumbledoresgirl - that sounds reassuring. A teacher from the school lives in our street so I'll have to be a bit more sociable and find out some more about how the school works. I was just shocked by the admissions policy (i.e. letter from Vicar!). I'll also try to find out whether or not the school is over subscribed (i.e. whether or lack of christianity is likely to be a problem...)

I think Playingthewaitinggame is absolutely right - most primary schools do have a default Christian slant, they still sing hymns and they still observe Christian festivals over others. They are the markers for the school year, if you think that Easter and Christmas are the end of each term. Certainly that is the case in my DS's state primary.

I doubt a C of E school, particularly one where there was no other choice of school for local children, would do very much more. The children aren't going to spend hours on bible studies and religious teaching.

But you are right, it would save a lot of hassle if the state schools and the church were kept apart but it seems to me that the church schools are usually good because of that extra money that the church provides so you will be reaping the benefit of that link with the church.

Is the admissions procedure saying that the letter from the vicar will be move a child up the list over those who are in catchment or is it saying that in the event of the catchment children getting in, the remainder of the places will be decided on the letter from the vicar. If it is the later you will probably be OK assuming that the school is big enough for the village and can take all catchment children.

Getting a place wasn't an issue for us when we lived in a village with a C of E school. And we only moved there in May and it took me until June to realise my son was due to start in September! (He is a June baby so I was thinking he was only 3 but of course he turned 4 in June and then I realised I was supposed to be looking for a school place for him!) Anyway, the point is, we applied well after the admissions date and had no problem getting in although we were not church goers.

If you look on the Ofsted website, you can find out how popular your school is because they always say what the number on roll is.

Wow, consensus! The thoughts expressed here echo my own views perfectly!

I don't think that the only choice open to you should be one affliated to a church. I don't have anything against church schools overall - but they shouldn't be part of catchments, etc - should be totally separate.

aGREE WITH THE op.You could always find out hoe 'religious'the school actually is.See what approach they take etc.I moved to Southern Ireland a few years ago where about 98 percent of the schools are Catholic.There is a huge change sweeping across the country with parents not happy to send their children to Catholic or Church of Ireland schools.There are a number of Educate Together schools and more starting up and there has been a dramatic increase in the number of children who are home educated.I would check out the religious content of the school and I do agree with your OP.