Could somebody who works in schools answer this for me

[Brandybucks]

Situation in a nutshell: we moved to the area last summer, DS2 got a reception place in our local school easily as he was in a low birth year (2017/18). DS1 however was in a high birth year (2014/15) and did not get a place in year 3 as all 60 places were taken. School felt it would be disruptive to go above 30 per class which I understand so we went on the waiting list. Fast forward a year and we are still in the same situation - two school runs twice a day and it’s a bit of an exhausting nightmare as I also have 2 younger children. (We don’t want to move DS2 because his school is by far the better school run for us and our younger kids in future.)

Today I noticed on the school website that due to another low birth year they haven’t managed to fill the 60 places in reception and they have gaps. Does anyone know if school might ever look at this situation and say Ok, we can’t fill reception, we have fewer kids in the infants so we will go above class size in year 3/4? Clutching at straws here 😅

It's an individual decision the Head and Governors have to make depending on the numbers. Sometimes it's feasible to put classes together maybe 2 mixed Yr 3 and 4 classes. Or in a 2 form intake one year 3 and on mixed, there are many possibilities but its up to the school. If there is physically no room in a classroom for another chair at a table they can't do it. Only the Headteacher would know the options available really and the school hets an allowance per child so it is in their interest to accommodate children if possible.
My daughter was in this position with a place for one child but not another when she moved house but, luckily, a child left and they both got places.

Unlikely unfortunately due to teacher capacity within each year. You can’t increase class sized above a certain point without adding an extra stream.

They can't put the extra year 3/4 children in the reception class, can they? They have to go into the right class for their age, and those classes are full.

If they are enough down to be cutting a class at the lower end, then I suppose there would be potential to add a KS2 class, but they'd need to know that there's enough demand to fill it, and also that they wouldn't need the classroom back for KS1 before the extra KS2 kids leave.

@lanthanum no not to put him in reception, I just wondered if they’d be more flexible if across the school they were significantly under the PAN but it looks like that’s not going to be the case. Thanks for the advice everyone! I’ll continue with my double drop offs 😩

Actually, yes, they could do. They did this for me when I wanted to move my daughter. No year five places but spaces in every other year group so they allowed her to start. I believe they mixed a few classes e.g mixed year 5&6, mixed 3&4 etc.

There isn't any rules in the uk on class sizes from year 3 onwards.

Can you appeal for a place at the juniors? You'd have to approach you LA and ask.

@itsgettingweird Yes it’s v frustrating from this point of view. They could let him in but have chosen not to (again, I do understand why it’s just a bit frustrating!) They seem very inflexible in this regard but I wondered if they get funding per pupil and have fewer in the infants whether they’d rather allow an older waiting list child in. Thanks for the help!

I think for financial reasons, if they still have two reception classes that aren't full, they might be persuaded to put an extra child in KS2 because the extra funding would go towards making up the shortfall from reception. It's the school's decision, though. I work in a Junior school and we have 32 per class. It would be easier with less in a class, yes, but once you get to 30, honestly an extra 2 don't make a huge amount of difference - they certainly don't make your job go from managable to unmanagable unless the particular child is very difficult, in which case it would be the same if they were child number 10 or child number 31.

I guess it's worth asking again - see if you can have a conversation with the head. We have 33 in one class because a child left, their space was given away and then they came back, and the head decided to let them back in.

Appeal for a ks2 place, even if the school has 30 in a class you may get a place if the detriment to your child in not attending is greater than the detriment to the school. Every class in my school in KS2 has over 30 children in it!

Once you have mixed year group classes, it is a bit easier, especially if there are spaces in the years either side of the full one.

Why don't you appeal?

@titchy i wrote an email to the head this time last year explaining our situation and she was very clear that they think going over 30 is detrimental to the other children. I suppose I was of the understanding that appealing only works in a very small minority of cases ie. not just a difficult school drop off. Is that incorrect?

It's a balancing act. If the detriment to your child by not being able to attend this school outweighs the school's argument for the detriment for admitting him, then you'll win.

So if you can show that your child will benefit from the choir/football club/ not arriving late every day/integrating into the local community, and the head can't really explain other than with generic statements (and they are quite weak statements, however forcibly they are made: most KS2 classes have more than 30 quite successfully) the panel should find in your favour.

There are several appeals experts on MN who will be able to advise further.

What does having few children in reception have to do with year 3?

Are you number 1 on the waiting list?

All heads will say they can't go over 30 if asked! But you can still appeal if you have decent grounds to do so. Does the school you want offer things that your child has an interest in but the current school doesn't provide- choir, drama, music provision above and beyond, lessons in mandarin or anything! It's certainly worth a try, especially if you already have a child in the school!

@nancy2022 that was my question really - if the number of kids for the whole school is 420 but they only have 400 due to lower numbers in reception/year 1 then I wanted to know if they ever allow higher numbers in other years

Yes, my school does this to balance the books. It's all about funding per pupil and it's at the discretion of the head. Have they met your child? Any chance they're high ability, or pupil premium but a safe bet to get Expected in Y6? If the school knows they're going to be little bother and good for their data, they might be more inclined to take your child...

@spanieleyes @titchy i think this is why I haven’t appealed because the detriment isn’t really to my son, he’s doing fine at the other school, the detriment is to me being absolutely frazzled doing two school drop offs twice a day with 4 kids. Understandably that’s not really their problem 🥴

I would definitely appeal for the Year 3 place. The school can be forced to go over 30 even if they don't want to.

@Flippper thank you this is really helpful, I might just give it a whirl- worst thing is they say no!

You can legally go above 30 in Years 3 to 6.
We had 36 children one year in a Y5/6 class.Not ideal but all were local children who deserved a place in their closest school.
Decent TA support is needed .

Another angle is how keen are they to keep your other child? If pupil numbers are very good, they might not be that bothered about the risk of losing him but if your son is a good pupil and you start bringing up the fact you're in an unsustainable situation, again it might prompt them to find an extra place.

@Flippper another good point! The reception teachers really like DS2 and he’s doing well in all areas but I’m not sure if the head would actually know that when there are so many kids 🤔 I could try that angle though

Echoing the point that there's no upper limit in KS2 classes but the school will have a PAN for each year group. If their PAN for each year group is 60 and they have 2 classes of 30 then they are full. If their PAN is 100, then they have space. The local authority should allocate you a place there if they are not at PAN.

Have you tried ringing the local authority admissions?

Absolutely, but they can flex the PAN if they so choose.