Room at school but I need to meet with head and SENCo first?

[kak808]

I’m looking at moving schools and the council confirmed that there is space for both of my children. I rang up the school because I’d emailed a couple of days ago and received no response. They said they want me to meet with the head and the SENCo first because one of the year groups is already very “complex.” I had mentioned that my child says some SEN needs, but doesn’t have an ECHP.

This leads me to 2 questions: 1) They can’t refuse us the spot over this, correct? And 2) Is this a bad sign? Do I not want my SEN child to join a “complex” situation?

I am a TA, it’s not uncommon to have more SEN needs than can realistically be met in a class nowadays. It’s unsatisfactory for everyone and very hard on teaching staff.

No they can't refuse but you would be stupid to put a child with SEN in a school that's telling you from the get go they're already at boiling point. Schools don't do that lightly, I promise.

They can't refuse you (admission officer here). If you have been offered the space due to their admission criteria - then it's your space.

Do not turn the space down on the basis of that meeting. Make them put it in writing that they refuse to give you the space.

If you turn down a space then the LA can refuse to help you further and you may end up with no suitable school space.

(Whether or not you want your child to go to that school is not the point any more.)

Thank you, I didn’t know this. If they refuse a spot, how much can the LA do to find space somewhere else? There are a number of other local schools, but none of them have space for either or my children. Would they find a space at a school over pan if my daughter is turned down on the basis of her SEN status?

This is not true.

17% of children nationally have SEN. SEN is defined as requiring something "additional to and different from" peers.

4% have EHCPs. Yes, a higher percentage need EHCPs, but it's not all 17%. Many children have SEN because they need short-term speech therapy, or have a hearing impairment, or dyslexia that isn't too severe. Many of them do not need an EHCP and suggesting that they do distracts from the children who do desperately need them.

The LA will have to find you a space. This may be far away though and will only be for the child that the school didn't accept. It's very very difficult for a school to refuse to accept a child without an EHCP. I suspect they want to meet with you as you're coming from private and they need you to understand this will look different.

and it’s generally very highly regarded

by whom ?
There is often a correlation between a school being "highly regarded" by parents locally, and not being a welcoming school for dc with SEND.

Obviously, not all. Note I said "correlation".

I could see how this would be the case. However I’ve heard generally from local parents that the SEN provision is quite good. Also, if they weren’t welcoming to SEN students, would they have this “complex” class already? Not discounting what you’re saying but I feel like there is evidence to the contrary. We’ll see!

I'd be worried that what they're saying is that they already can barely cope with the children they have and that some maybe extremely disruptive/violent. Might not be the case, but I'd be concerned.

If the school has a place available, they must offer it to you. The 'detriment to the efficient education of other children' is part of the SEN Code of Practice and is a ground that a LA can refuse to name a school on an EHCP. Your child doesn't have an EHCP, so that isn't a consideration here.

However, you should accept the meeting and consider whether this school can meet your child's needs.

When my DD was 6 we were school hunting. Strongly suspected ASD (dx came later) but had no proof and no support to put her on the assessment pathway. Very well behaved. I took her to a one form entry school and the HT showed me around and said "If you want evidence of her SEN, send her here and you'll have it in about 3 weeks because she won't cope in that class at all. I could throw 5 adults in that room and it would still be a difficult class because we have so much SEN already." He wasn't saying no, just warning me that it may not be what DD needed.

The LA would have to use the local Fair Access Protocol if there are no suitable spaces locally. Yes they can push a class over PAN with this. However, if there is space for one child locally then you must accept this. The FAP is not used just to put 2 kids in the same school.

my daughter is in a class of 29 with a lot of complex needs already, I’d worry if another child joined with needs because it pushes my daughter, an existing pupil, even further down the line of getting help and support when needed. I think it’s sensible they’re meeting you first.

Unfortunately masses of SEN schools closed and SEN needs are at an all time high post pandemic. It used to be the case that certain schools had a good reputation for SEN, and that's why they had such a large % of it. This is no longer the case. Every school, even ones that handle SEN badly, have masses of it in many classes. I strongly suspect they want to meet with you as you're coming from private and they're worried about your expectations Vs what they can provide.

I haven't read the full thread, but the answers to your question are:

1. No, they cannot refuse to admit your children if they have places available. They cannot discriminate against or disadvantage children with SEN. Whilst the latest Admissions Code says that PAN only applies to the normal year of entry, they will have a hard time persuading an appeal panel that they can't admit a child if they are below PAN in the relevant year. After all, they would have to admit the child in the normal admissions round or if they were an in-year admission going into Reception.

2. They are not allowed to interview parents or children as part of the admissions process. That is a direct breach of the Admissions Code. The fact they are refusing to confirm the availability of places until this meeting takes place tells us that this is indeed an illegal interview. Overall, I would say this is a very bad sign as we have a school that is apparently willing to break the law because your child has SEN.

@Mumdiva99 is correct, don’t turn down the place the LA has offered - referred you to. If the LA has offered you a place they have fulfilled their duty and if you turn it down they don’t have to find you another one. If the school refuse your child then make them confirm that in writing to the LA, do not be hoodwinked into refusing or withdrawing yourself. The LA will ensure your child gets a state school place, using the FAP if appropriate.

I had one point where I was told I needed to pop down and see the head before they could confirm a place was available.

I know schools pull some shit with SEN at times (I have a child with SEN) but it was purely that they hadn't got a space "officially" but knew that someone was about to leave within a couple of weeks - so couldn't say they had a space in writing but needed to make sure I was clear of what the exact situation was.

What do I do if they don’t outright refuse her a spot, but simply “recommend against it.” From what I’m reading, it may not be a good environment for her, but if I’m the one to turn it down am I up the creek with the LA?

If they offer the place and you reject it, you will have to try other schools. The LA won't have to find an alternative for you.

You accept it, stick her on other waiting lists and see how it goes. I've never seen a school do this before so I strongly suspect they think you have alternative private options.

If you decide you don’t want her to go there after all, what is your plan -

Leave both in the fee paying school and join the waiting list for another state school - your place on the list could go up or down.

Move one child to the state school offered but find the fees to keep their sibling with SEND in their current setting until you can find her a place at another school.

Something else?

if they do offer you a place are with planning to send them to the new school as soon as you have sorted out the uniform, I.e. straight away.

I’m really not sure! It may be beg for a larger bursary to buy us some time but beyond that I don’t know. My SEN DD is going into Year 5 next year. I feel like now is the time to move or she’s be really upset about missing out on Year 6.

If there are places and we decide to go for this school, we will start them in the autumn.

You may not be able to delay their start until the autumn. It depends on the school, but they often insist that places offered via in-year applications are taken up within a few weeks.

I don't think you've said whether you've given notice to the independent school. If you haven't, you may have to pay for the autumn term regardless of whether your children are still attending the school.

We’ve told them we want to start in the autumn and they haven’t said that’s a problem, but we’ll see I guess. Because DC are currently in private school, they get out a few weeks earlier, but unfortunately they’re on a plane the next day to see family. Otherwise maybe it would have been nice for them to join for the last few weeks!

We haven’t given notice at our current school and understand that we may still owe a term’s fees. We’re hoping they may be somewhat sympathetic given our situation, but if not, we’ll deal with it. We weren’t able to do a tour at the new school before the deadline so we’ve accepted that possibility.

It's not permitted to hold a place if there's a waiting list, as that would be depriving somebody else's child of a place.

There is no wait list. But obviously I’ll see what they say at the meeting. They didn’t make it sound like it would be a problem given they won’t be available for me to tour for two more weeks. I suppose someone could jump ahead in the meantime though. But my kids can’t start this year. As I said, our travel plans are tied to their current school term dates (booked a long time ago) so they would miss the last 2.5 weeks.