Would you move school?

[PSL1990]

My daughter is in reception class at what was our first choice school. We were stuck between two schools and have felt like we have made the wrong decision for a while.

Our issues essentially arise from a few children in her class. There is one boy that regularly swears and when I contacted the teacher to tell her my daughter had come home and said the F word, she told me the bad language in his year group is on a scale the school has never had to deal with before. Several other parents have experienced the same so I don’t trust that the school is dealing with it effectively.

Another problem is a boy in her class who is very physical and aggressive. Last term there was an incident where he had caused so much destruction in a classroom that the children had been moved into a separate room for pick up whilst the other room was cleaned up (I understand something had been smashed on the floor). Since then there continues to be stories every week of someone that boy has hit/pushed/hurt. I know parents have been complaining to the teacher and the head about this continuing and so again I don’t feel as though it’s being addressed effectively.

So my questions are…. Is this very shocking to you or within ‘normal’ expectations of a larger (two class per year group) state school? And would you consider moving your child to another school because of this?

This is fairly normal now in primary and there is no guarantee that a different school would be any better.

What would you like the school to be doing about it?

I'd move her, yes. It's not highly unusual imo but it's not like that in every class. Don't they mix the classes up there?

Sadly it doesn't sound that different from my experience working in school.

We have children in our Reception who were refused places at specialist schools because their needs were too great. So we have to take them in our primary instead.

The system is broken.

It is not a particularly unusual experience but some classes are worse than others. Some schools are better at dealing with things than others too but there are limits to what can be achieved. Some schools do more training, used their meagre budgets in different ways or have better environments - like more space instance.

But i think it could be a very a gamble to move to be honest.

keep complaining, and involve you MP

you could move, but tbh she might well end up in the same situation, or worse.

Just complain every time, and escalate if nothing happens

Quite often the school can't do anything, but the more parents complain, the power weight the school has when it complains

What is it that you expect a school to be able to ‘do’ with a four year old who swears? They can try to teach them not to do it, help develop vocabulary and communication skills, impose consequences when they swear, reward for not swearing. But they can’t stop those words coming out of the child’s mouth, or other children hearing them.
Try another school, by all means, but you may well find the same happens. You can teach your own child not to swear, regardless of what is heard from other children.

The same problem might exist at any school tbh. I don't think all schools have this problem all the time, my kids have not had anything like this at their 3 form entry school. But before moving them I would ask about when they mix the classes up. All schools vary with this, some do it very early others later, some do it every other year. But even then there's no guarantee that your child won't be in the same class as one of these children.

This is normal in most schools, it isn't advertised and some children don't even tell their parents about incidents that occur in class. Even the outstanding primary I volunteered in for over a decade had calm your arse down rooms where they removed children, physically kicking and swearing, from classrooms and put them into a room to chill.

Schools will now have a team of people usually under the banner SEMH (social, emotional and mental health) or a Well being Team. These staff are there to help facilitate children remaining in the classroom. If you look on the school your child is at and the one you might want to send them to I would say they have these staff members. Sometimes it comes under the umbrella of SENDCo.

Children with behavioural issues are entitled, just as your child is, to be educated with their peers which means interventions in school. There will be interventions, you won't see it but they are trying to manage it. This is nothing new. They try to keep them in class otherwise it teaches them misbehave and everyone else has to do work whilst you get special treatment and taken out of class, mostly to do work but still it feels special.

Unless you pay for private school where they can choose their pupils this is happening to some degree in all primaries. It is very sad.

On the child who is physical and aggressive - it is entirely possible (though not certain) that this nay be a sign of SEN. Unfortunately, post pandemic and combined with the current funding crisis in schools, pre-school diagnosis of SEN and getting support in place (including from external agencies with huge waiting lists) has been slower and more erratic even than it was before.

Many more children are starting at school with undiagnosed needs, and this obviously has a huge impact, which the school will find it harder and harder to mitigate as they have to reduce staffing to cut costs. It may well be that the other school - whatever it has historically been like - may have very similar issues in its current Reception year.

You may find that the school manages to get funding and support for this child in place over the coming months / years, and that this completely changes their effect on the class as a whole. It is completely reasonable to ask the school how they are keeping your child safe in the meantime.

On the swearing - if a child’s parents bring them up to believe swearing is acceptable, and models it in front of them, they will swear. If you work with your child to explain when it is not acceptable, and never swear in front if them, they will rapidly learn from you. The school will doubtless be doing lots of work on acceptable and unacceptable language, but undoing 5 years of parental influence is going to take time, and even then, all you can reasonably expect is that they learn not to use that language in the formal environment of the classroom over time.

Whether this will be different in a different school depends - if the socio-economic make-up of the two schools is diametrically opposite, possibly. However, from the fact you were torn between schools, it sounds as if they were fairly similar. Again, lack of exposure outside the family to pre-schools etc in formative years may mean that this cohort is slower to learn ‘social conventions’ of this type and it may improve over time.

Also, every school has ‘those’ years - cohorts with an atypical profile for one reason or another. What was interesting locally was that one particular year had the same difficulties - far higher EHCPs, SEMH issues etc - in every school. Children moved around schools to ‘escape’ and found the same issues everywhere, and all the Special Schools were even more than usually over-subscribed for that year meaning very high needs children were in mainstream.

Think about how you can mitigate the effect on your child, both at home and with the support of the school.

I think it’s a case of luck if your child ends up in a good, sociable class at primary school and bad luck if you find yourself in the situation you are. However, you just don’t know until your child starts school.
Even ‘good’ catchment areas can have children with various needs. Moving your child will not guarantee they don’t have similar issues in a different class. Behaviour in primary schools has really taken a nose dive in the last 10 years. It’s not the schools fault but children are starting school with more behavioural issues.

I would never have rang the teacher cos my child said 'fuck'!
So the first point is moot really. I mean let's face it all you can do on that one is teach her it's not a nice word so she doesn't say it.

Second point might be more reasonable. I still think I'd monitor the situation at this point though and give it more time

One kid who swears and on who has meltdowns is lower than average.

It is a broken system. Not enough funding, not enough SEN provision etc. The list goes on.

DD also started in reception in September in what we would deem a "good catchment area." She attends breakfast club and came home and referenced something sexual. which we flagged with the school. It was dealt with. I don't think there is much you can do about the language, but in terms of physical harm you need to escalate and if you get no joy, go to the governors. It may take a few of you with the same concerns for anything to be done.

Is the school a 2 or 3 form entry? If so, could you ask for DD to be moved class?

All schools have children like this. Even if you find one without them, there is no guarantee one won't arrive in the next 6 years.

Support striking teachers, write to your MP about school funding, SEND support, external agency funding etc. Never vote Tory.

There's not enough special schools and insanely long lists for diagnosis so many children will be in classes with others M who have behaviour like that. You might get lucky in another school but you don't know how often they shuffle the classes or when a new child might start. It could also be worse in another school.

The bad language - that's normal. Your child will learn other undesirable things and words because other children are raised differently to yours. There will be children who swear in all schools and it will be a matter of time before she picks up worse than fuck.

Didn't your dd go to nursery ? This is often the first place that kids pick up undesirable stuff like swearing

I had the experience of a child smashing up the classroom and having to move the rest of the class out. This happened about 20 years ago and the Head managed to get him into a diagnostic unit and he never returned to the school. I'm afraid that probably couldn't happen today due to underfunding and closing of this kind of facility.

The swearing is a different one as the child probably experiences this as normal at home. I'm sure the teacher is concerned about this and is working on it. I would be impressing on him and all the other children that we don't use those words at school and you will have to do this at home too.

If you find a school without any they have successfully off rolled all their SEN student. I would hope they wouldn't get away with it for 6 years!

I would always prefer a school that had a diverse intake and an inclusive outlook for all children. You do not know if your child will ever have additional needs. They are not always apparent in reception. Anything can happen to any child that might result in additional needs - short or long term. We all need schools that will continue to try to meet our child’s needs as they change and grow.

And just how would you like the school to deal with these issues?? Schools have no idea how most children will behave in a school setting, which is totally different from nursery or preschool.
If a child hears swearing at home- surprisingly many do, they will repeat it. Parents usually express surprise when it is brought to their attention, as they insist that they have told the child not to repeat those words.

The disruptive child could have many reasons for their behaviour and staff will be trying to find out what the triggers are and how to help them.
Just be grateful your child is not one of the above.

Very good point. I know a few parents that moved kids to avoid the issues re children who were effecting their childs education... only to realise their child had own issues.

It does sound within the normal bounds. To be honest my own child used to push other children over in reception, he was 4 years old at the time and he has stopped by year 1.

Many schools have to deal with children who use awful language. Every time the teacher hears it the child will be told it isn't acceptable. The parents probably use this language. What else can the school do?

A child with behavioural problems - many schools have such children. They have a duty to educate and to support all children. A child cannot be permanently excluded without schools doing a lot to support and manage such a child. Sometimes there is little they can do other than support, give well being and behavioural help and keep others safe by removing everyone. What would you like them to do?

I am aware that our school currently has at least three or four classes like this. It's two classes per year. Friend is TA at the school.

Friend teaches at another school says they have similar numbers.

From everything I'm hearing it's more the norm rather than the exception from YR4 down.

The system is broken.

Moving schools is unlikely to solve the issue. Keep complaining and keep putting into writing.