Park Hill Junior School vs Cumnor House school Croydon

[PLSL]

Hello everybody,

My DS is now in Y2 of Park Hill infant school, which is an excellent school (KS1 results in top 2% nationally last year). Now we need to choose the next primary school for him.

Our choices are:

• Park Hill Junior school. This school is right next to Park Hill infants. Does anyone have any feedback on this school. The Pro's are that DS would get to stay with his friends and that the school is a 5 minute walk from our house. Based on the KS2 results we are not sure if this school performs as well as the infant school.

• Cumnor House School for Boys. This is a private school for boys in South Croydon. The cons are that DS would need to make new friends (he is an outgoing boy, so should be fine) and that we would need to drive him to school 15-20 minutes every day. The school day at this school is also longer, so he would need to leave home at around 7.50am and come home after 4pm. With Park hill junior he can go to school at 8.50 and come back shortly after 3.

Our goals are: Ideally we would like to send him to a Grammar school in Sutton (he does well academically - he is the top boy in his current class).

Does anyone have their children at these schools? How would you rate them in terms of what your child is learning? Are the schools pushing your Child academically?

We are not from the UK, but is there a big difference between state and private primary schools? When we visited both schools, the facilities seemed similar, with the only difference that Cumnor have a swimming pool onsite, teach mandarin and have a much larger playing field.

Any feedback on either of these schools would be fantastic.

Thank you

@PLSL - I do not want to out myself but my timeline of experience is recent at CHS. The school is currently in a cycle (which a lot of schools go through). Its stage in the cycle is on the bottom, so at some point it will make its way back up (we hope). We joined (without realising when it was declining) and managed to suck it up for 7 painful years!

It would be recommended to go state (save money) and use it towards experienced tutors which will keep your child ahead academically and prepare them when the time is right for the exams.

If I could do it all over again, I would have saved a fortunate and gone state and then tutored. In the end we paid private and still had to tutor.

what many people don’t disclose is that they are tutoring the heck out of the children to get them ready for the exams.

CHS is 11/13 plus school but the reality is they want them to stay until 13 (many don’t stay) so the 11 plus teaching is subpar.

There is a mass exodus at 10+ and they can’t stop the tide - this has been going on for years. Parents are desperate to get out as soon as possible- this is for a number of reasons. 11+ is highly competitive and it is said you have a better chance at certain schools if you go a year early (not the same for grammar schools); the other reason by Year 3 parents are clued up and realise that the school is not as amazing as they thought.

I won’t slander individuals as it’s not fair; however the owners of the school have a lot to answer for. They have let an amazing diamond be rundown by under resourcing them while driving up the school fees, staff morale is just…. Most of the staff left are either friends or related (you make of that what you will and how that works or professionally).

it’s just a sad state of affairs!

@Mumisoneofmynames Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Seems to be a common issue for preps that end at 13. Wonder whether they will eventually be forced to give in to what parents want and stop at 11. It seems like teacher morale is a separate issue to that. I wonder if the new head can turn things around in that respect. Apart from the academic side of things, how has pastoral care been?

Re stopping at 11+ potentially I could see the owners scrapping the 13 or amalgamation in the future. Anything after 11, they struggle with as they don’t have the right type of teachers to teach at secondary level nor do they cover the depth, so you are stuck once again relying upon external help. The new head has been at the school for at least 15+ years and though a lovely women is punching far above her weight. From
observations, she is stressed due to the unkind emails she receives daily from disgruntled and dissatisfied parents. I won’t go into detail. I believe it’s up to individual parents to make ann informed choice as possible, research themselves and also listen to the gut!

what I would say is the statistics of offers do drill down into and you will see discrepancies. For a school which does not prepare for 10+ and they actively state this they use the data from the boys who sit it to include in their success record which is misleading as everyone one of those parents had to do the prep by themselves!

Pastoral is hit and miss - depends upon your child, you and luck of the draw!

best of luck

@Mumisoneofmynames Ah you’re right about the Head. I’m getting myself confused by looking at so many schools! Still looking for a school in the area that will prep well for the 11+… so I do need the good luck! But maybe state plus tuition is the way to go

You will struggle locally. If you want single sex then it’s limited choice - elmhurst is local but has issues also. Any follow through school (royal Russell) will not prep.

Regardless of choice - you will need to do your own prep as that’s how the system works. No-one relies solely on the school.

looking at it logically, the school do not have enough hours to drill down into topics in the way required. The real work happens outside of school.

good luck in your decision making

13 has always been traditionally what prep (boys) educate to and the age most public schools entry.
Its only been relatively recent many top boys private schools have accepted boys at 11+ and this is in response to state primary entry.

I wont argue with parents who have kids at Cumnor, (I don't, they attend a different prep) but I'd imagine most of the 13+ leave for boarding schools or the local best Indie boys schools like Whtigift and Trinity that have well established 13+ entry.

OP, you worry about the longer day at Cumnor, but this is the norm at Prep.
Cumnor after school clubs for boys, anything from creative writing to Training Orchestra (Grade 1+) to Maths, and that's just the free clubs. All very normal and geared to give boys a wide range of pursuits to feed boys Indie schools like Whitgift that demand well rounded boys with lots of interests. (Top grammar schools do too)

Of course many parents tutor at Preps, its an arms race for the best schools, and parents with money will throw everything at their DC gaining places at top schools.

Can you manage to recreate the list below at state school?

www.cumnorhouse.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/70/2022/09/Boys-Extra-Curricula-Activities-Autumn-Term-2022.pdf

One of the reasons I fork out a fortune on fees, are for the whistles and bells Prep provide,

Does one need to send their DC to Prep for entry to grammar or Indie ? - No. Is it worth the fees? Only you can decide.

Thank you everyone for such detailed answer.

@Mumisoneofmynames your perspective is outstanding.

To be entirely honest, we looked at both Cumnor and Elmhurst. This is not a financial issue for us, but rather how much value added the school provides versus our state option (Park Hill), which is apparently the best locally.

We looked at both schools. Elmhurst looked brilliant on paper and from a pastoral care perspective until we actually visited the school. The school won a national math competition last year, which is brilliant. However, we looked at their facilities, cramped class rooms and visited some of the classes and we were not as impressed as the impression you get on paper and it is hard to recover from that.

Cumnor House made a better impression, esp with the swimming pool. But we were not that impressed by what our son was being taught on his trial day versus what he is learning at our local state school. We both have advanced degrees, but didnt think that academic curriculum was that sophisticated relative to the state school option. The state school is top 3% in reading nationally and top 10% in Math. It is also 50 meters from our house, and our street will be turned into a school street, so we can actually let DS walk to school.

We decided that we will rather spend the money on tutors and spend whatever is saved on their school fees throughout their education on a deposit for their first property.

Thank you very much for all your input.

@itisntmuch your summary is spot on regarding, a parents personal choice re whether something is ‘worth the money’

CHS Boys (your attachment was for the girls school) extra curriculum has always been spot on and there is always something for a young boy to select. Of course it’s hard for any state school to meet that offering, so unfair to compare the ‘extras’ as that’s what your money gets you.

The State V Private is always a ‘hot topic’ on this website! I agree that is liken to an ‘arms race’ (real nightmare).

The view on a school is always going to be mostly likely subjective with sprinkles of objectives depending upon how emotional someone is 😂🥴

After being in the system for 8 years, I really see it for what it is - the focus for us now is ‘who is going to deliver’ and work alongside us as we are always going to put the extra work in

Admissions for the Sutton grammars is fierce, most people use additional tutoring including those in private schools. You need to have a plan B in mind. Lots of people use state and tutor to gain access to private/grammar schools education.
You should consider state secondary options as well. Park Hill is a feeder for Coombe Wood School, which is part of the trust run by Wallington grammar school.

Hi OP,

I would just like to give some balance to the discussion. We have always found Cumnor to be exactly the right place. The provision during lockdown was superb, whereas any state provision we were told about via friends etc was almost non-existent!

The comments and implied negativity about the head seem very personal! Yes the school has had a few changes over recent years, but the head has worked her way up to her current position, hence the longevity of her service! Since her appointment, we feel the school has become more transparent and the pastoral care has always been outstanding at Cumnor.

The extra-curricular at Cumnor is phenomenal and there is a real holistic feel to the school’s approach. Yes 11+ & 13+ are the main focus, this is the norm for a prep school, and if you do not buy into the frenzy of over prepping for 10+ etc then there is no need for additional tutoring.

We love Cumnor and would recommend it to any parents with high aspirations for their son as they really do foster a can-do attitude within the boys.

I have tried to not be personal in my comments as I feel this is an unfair approach that is not helpful.

Each to their own, but balance is always good.

@Mumisoneofmynames i have pm you

@Youser111 its not showing up - I’ve got a notification but no message can be seen

Hi

I would like to add my two cents here. The debate of state versus private was an ongoing and big decision for us.

We decided to put our son at Cumnor upon the advice of a lot of people and it hasn’t disappointed. The fundamental point is that you need to find the right school for your child rather than the other way round, whether that is via the state school route or otherwise.

We have friends with children in both settings and all are thriving equally and are happy.

For us, the tiny class sizes versus circa 30 children in a state school, the outstanding access to facilities, the responsiveness of the teachers and the discipline has been pivotal. Our son is happy to go to school, and a happy child means that they will enjoy learning.