Infants to primary (rather than juniors)?

[Purp1e]

DC in Y2 and is at an infants school so we need to apply for juniors in January.

We would like to apply for a primary school as first preference rather than the associated junior school.

The LA transition book just says about applying for junior schools and only lists junior schools but I assume you can apply for a primary school too?

Has anyone had any experience with transferring from infants to full primary? Or a completely different juniors? Especially when the infants is so linked with the juniors e.g. have trips to the juniors, go watch the junior plays, Y3 from the juniors come to the Y2 class as part of a buddy thing, infants who need to will use the junior school library, other random little things like that.

Reasoning behind this is, we applied for the primary school (closest school) when applying for reception places (which only feels like 5 minutes ago!) We didn’t get in. In fact we got none of the schools on our list and were offered the infants school, which happens to be the 3rd closest school to the house, the juniors is 2nd. (Lost appeals because of ICS).
It’s been a good school, and despite the initial ‘inadequate’ rating has really surprised me, the teachers are great, management really sorted the curriculum/other problems out very quickly and keep making improvements, the school has supported and developed DC more than I thought they would and I can’t really criticise anything about it other than it’s a faith school which is what we didn’t want (We don’t withdraw from RE as didn’t want DC to be left out/made to feel different).

We don’t want to transfer to the associated faith junior school, religion steps up a bit with kids doing first communion etc, which DC would be left out of.

Even if we did apply for the associated junior school as first preference, it is unlikely we would get a place as they (both the infants and the juniors) are now OFSTED ‘good’ and oversubscribed where as when we got the infants place they were OFSTED ‘inadequate’ for the infants and ‘requires improvement’ for the juniors. Parents of children who were at the same infants who transferred to Y3 this year missed out on places at the juniors and been allocated completely random junior schools.

Hence wondering whether we can name the primary school we initially wanted as a preference on the junior form and how other kids manage with going from infants to primary or to a completely different juniors. (Basically, it sounds like it’s going to be reception places nightmare all over again with you get what you are given but we will pretend you have a choice by letting you fill in a form).

If you got to the end of this, thank you so much! I didn’t realise it had got so long until I read it back to myself!

The issue with the primary school is that if they have a space now they won't necessarily have one in September when you would want her to start. Or would you consider starting her there straight away if there was a space?

Does the primary have an entrance point at Yr 3? Some for example put an extra class on and it's a recognised admissions point for which you can apply in the same way as other schools and it will be in the information from your LA and you can apply on the CAF.

If it's a through primary with no entry at year 3 though then it's really an in year admissions question and whether there is a space there. Are you already on the waiting list? I'd recommend getting your DC on there and being ready to move them if a place is offered to you at any point. The good news is that once your DC is into year 3 the ICS rules cease to apply so it is easier to win an appeal than for an EYFS or KS1 place.

Round here, for example, we have three sets of linked infant /junior schools and a couple of through primaries who do not have a year 3 entry point. It is not uncommon that children move, for all sorts of reasons, from one infant school to another of the junior schools, but moves to the primaries happen at any point and only if there is a place available.

I wouldn’t rule out starting straight away if there was a place. We have to move anyways at the end of the school year.
The primary doesn’t have another class in year 3 so assuming they don’t have year 3 entry as standard.

We were on waiting list for the primary for all of YearR. But the infants school was making massive improvements and towards the end of Year R, DC eventually settled really well after all the covid lockdown home school and repeated year group/class covid isolations. So we didn’t want to move DC at that point as it would have been one disruption too many for them (we had lots of problems/DC wasn’t coping well with the constantly changing rules/arrangements). We didn’t stay on the waiting list after Year R (they sent a letter and we had to reply to them to say we wanted to stay on it, it isn’t automatic) knowing we would have to reapply for schools in 18 months anyways so a period of stability would be good for DC, and it has been good for them.

Its good there will be no ICS in appeals this time round. That’s a big benefit.

Would it be worth putting the primary as first preference on the CAF anyways? Then surely, if we don’t get a place, we would be added to the waiting list and can appeal from there?
Or is that a wasted preference?

I know one child from the year above was located a different primary rather than a juniors even though they didn’t apply for it and they started at the beginning of year 3. So assuming schools do have the ability to accept a child and allow they to start at the beginning of the schools year? Unless this was something the LA made them do?

There will be someone with more knowledge than me but I think it will be a wasted preference. IMO your best bet would be to see if there are any spaces now and if not put her on the waiting list.

In our area they are very clear that you cannot do this and that if you want to move into a through primary you apply as an in year admission but I bet different areas are different!

Interesting. I wouldn’t know, never come across anyone asking this before. Nothing stopping you applying for the primary school and for other junior schools. (Don’t forget to include a catchment or the one the infants feeds to as you possibly are still higher up the admissions list for the feeder juniors).
Whether applying for the primary on the CAF for junior is the right way to do it, I don’t know. Possibly a wasted preference?

Someone like admission or PatriciaHolm or ph47bridge might know. (I don’t know how to tag people who aren’t already on the thread sorry)

You need in year admissions, sometimes schools have an agreement for taking an extra couple from year 3, so could be offered to the 2 at the top of the wait list. The junior caf is only for schools with year 3 entry point. One of our local primary schools used to take the 20 children in the local infants school at year 3 as an official entry (infants now a primary, so no longer an entry point).

The answer is to ask your LA. We have a mixture in my LA. Mostly DC go to a linked junior school but some primaries take Dc from “feeder” primary. Almost all of these are CofE. We have quite a few village infant schools but they all have their link primary or junior. So I would ask the LA directly about an in year application or using the standard procedure. They will have up to date on roll numbers too. So an immediate might influence your decision.

In our area this would be an in year admission but they do up the class size in year 3 so take an extra six (2 for each class). Most schools would expect you to start before September if a place came up earlier though.

When we applied for junior school, our online system only offered us the choice of the actual junior schools, not primary, so then it would be an in year move. Have you been able to see what the online application looks like?

As others have said, if the Primary doesn't have an official entry point at Year 3, then you need to do an in-year application and not apply via the CAF, which is just for schools with an official Year 3 entry point. Double check that the primary doesn't offer a few spaces - some don't add a whole extra class, but do add 2/3 spaces per class as the infant class size restrictions no longer apply.

You can do an in-year application that at any time, but if there is a place you would be expected to take it up within a couple of weeks normally.

As others have said, I think the way to do it is to apply for in year transfers to the primaries (who will just fill places as and when they become available) but apply to juniors only on your application.

I’m glad we’re in a primary only area!

I did this. I did an in-year application for my youngest dd who was in year 1 and the usual change of school application form for my ds who was in year 2. There were spaces at the primary when I applied but by the deadline he was waitlisted and given a place at our 2nd choice school.Dd moved schools first in the summer term which then bumped ds up the waitlist as he now had a sibling at the primary and a space was found for him a couple of days into the new school year.

with hindsight I would do as others suggested and move him sooner as an in year application unless you are confident you will be very near the top of any waitlist

Some excellent advice offered. Thank you.

Will take the advice and apply for the primary school separately. @Grimbleton, really appreciate the hindsight.

It doesn’t look like they offer extra spaces but, from having a look at numbers in the school from the government stats website and some rough calculations, at least half of the junior classes have 31 rather than 30.

If we get a place earlier then we can move sooner. If not, we can try and appeal.
@PatriciaHolm, do you know whether there is a time limit on when you can appeal? Or can you appeal at anytime when you are on the waiting list? Just wondering whether we could appeal nearer to the time for a year 3 place rather than try and appeal for a year 2 place which has ICS limits?

Will also apply for 3 junior schools and include the junior school the current infants feeds into as one of the preferences. Although we only have 3 junior schools in town so at least that makes deciding which junior schools to include extremely easy.

You can only appeal if you have been refused a place. They won’t offer you a place, or reject you, from y3 now if DD is y2. It’s an in year application. Not for a year dd isn’t in.

Ok, thanks @TizerorFizz. So we apply and get rejected for in year application we put in for year 2 place (would probably this month or January when we apply). We appeal for a year 2 place if rejected. If we don’t win appeal we go on the waiting list because there are no year 2 places. Happy with that.

So say we get wait listed for year 2 after the appeal, and it’s getting to the end of year 2 (so June/July time). Would we be allowed to re-appeal for a place? Or is it a one appeal and that’s it kind of thing?

I know we will 99% be rejected for year 2. So if it is a case of you can only appeal once, if they reject and put us on the waiting list, do we have to appeal straight away, or can we wait until near the end of year 2 (June/July time)? Or even beginning of year 3?

You might want to apply for a y3 place. This is where you should ask the LA. When should you apply? Will the wait list continue? Are there more places? Where are you on the wait list?

I was a governor of a junior school and we had no classes over 30 unless school was named in a statement or the child was adopted/looked after. So all ordinary applications were refused and we never took these applicants. They then usually went elsewhere.

So it’s worth asking the LA what the places situation is before applying. All about getting the timing right. So if no year 2 places then hold off applying, better off applying for year 3 and appealing if needed.
That makes sense.

But worth investigating what the waiting list situation is as if it’s short/non existent then better to get in earlier and accept the place, or have a higher chance of being offered a place, as the primary might end up with a longer waiting list later on so we would be in worse position.

Thank you for the list of questions. Very helpful. Will ask those.

You can appeal once per year group, unless your circumstances significantly change.

Thanks @PatriciaHolm.

If that’s the case, we will put the junior school application in naming 3 junior schools.

At the same time investigate via the LA what the places and waiting list situations are like for the primary school.

If places at the primary we will apply for a year 2 place. If no places, knowing we can appeal more than once (as long as it’s once per year group), probably worth putting the application in anyways so we can get on the waiting list and hope for a place before the end of year 2 combined with appeals if/when rejected for year 2 and at the start of year 3 if necessary.

We would definitely prefer the primary to any of the junior schools so fingers crossed for a place.

Just picking up your point about waiting lists. The primary one will potentially get longer, but it will be in admissions order. So getting on earlier won't necessarily help. It will help if a place becomes available soon and you get offered it before others thought to apply. However if others apply later than you but better fit the admissions criteria e.g siblings, live nearer, they will be put on the list above you.

Personally I would apply now to the waiting list but ask when is the earliest for a year 3 appeal. Your chance of success for a year 2 appeal, having already appealed in Reception (was this the same school?) seems tiny. I would save your efforts for year 3.

Thanks for that. I actually rang the LA today and didn’t actually have much luck. None seemed to want to answer the phone (I did ring at an awkward time - lunch - so they were probably on theirs too).

Anyways, I rang the primary school instead. I had some luck there. If we applied now we would go on the waiting list. But there’s only 2 on the waiting list so we would be either 1st, 2nd or 3rd. They also said, but can’t guarantee it will happen this year, that they do get 3 or 4 leaving at the end of year 2 to try and get into the junior schools so can take a few off the waiting list. I asked why in case it was something dodgy and it was just usual things like change of house, they want the juniors, a good point to change if they didn’t get the infants they wanted. Seemed general normal things.

Asked about appeals. Can appeal if we don’t like the decision they make when we apply. Can also appeal from first day of term of year 3. As mentioned by Patricia, it’s only once per school year.

So, I’ve change plan slightly again.

Preferred: apply with in year application for the Primary which we really want. Doing application ASAP. As in, tonight.
On the Junior CAF as a back up plan:

1. Juniors we wouldn’t mind having
2. Linked juniors that we can cope with
3. Juniors we really don’t want.

Decided that it’s worth trying to get the primary, but, if we don’t get a place by Christmas of year 3, as long as we don’t get the juniors we really don’t want, we will probably stick with the juniors we’re given. Unfortunately, we’re likely to get juniors 3.