Education system in Finland- something to aim for

[Parker231]

Something many countries should aspire to. Formal schooling starts at age seven, teachers are required to have a Masters, no standardised testing and homework is at an average of half an hour a day. Schools in Finland are ranked amongst the top in the world.

Yep. The sad thing is they have been running their education system like this for decades and no other country seems particularly interested in learning anything from their success.

The biggest difference is no private schools, no two tier education system. No Eton, no St Pauls Girls.

There are some private schools in Finland, like international schools, and the handful of private schools that exist can't charge anything like the private schools here.

That's the BIG difference in Finland versus the UK, all the schools are free and maintained at a high standard.

They tax properly too to fund it. You would never have the situation we have here, Dukes Education for example.

The Finnish system would never happen here, not in a million years...

Look at the A level and GCSE results, London and the South East towering over the rest of the country, the region of the UK with the greatest concentration of wealth....

School starts starts at 7 but basically all children are in state nursery from 2 full time, where they basically have something that resembles nursery/reception/year 1

primary school teachers are paid less

under 7s teaching staff get shit pay and shit holidays

teachers may have MAs but frequently just read from websites as a lesson

behaviour is awful and staff are stressed out by it

tiny class sizes that literally can’t be replicated here due to our population

do you know anything about the Finnish Ed system or have you just read a meme?

And it is important to recognise that it is impossible to take a system and drop it in elsewhere.
Finland's education system is part of a different society to ours. Different values, community, priorities and funding. Society respect and commitment.

Would be amazing though.

@Suprima - my cousin and his family moved from France to Finland two years ago. Their two children are primary age. They are very pleased with the education system and doesn’t resemble your comments.

This always gets rolled out, 'tiny class sizes that literally can't be replicated here due to our population'

Yet Germany ( 84 million population, bigger than the UK) somehow manage it!!!😂

I know the @Suprima you're having a laugh talking about 'behaviour is awful and staff are stressed out by it' compared to what, our schools😅

As for 'under 7s teaching staff get shit pay and shit holidays' , are you suggesting its better pay and holidays for nursery staff and junior school staff here in the UK????

There are fewer nursery staff here. The Finnish nursery system and pre school does on for a lot longer. I think my eldest dd needed formal education before 7 . Others in her cohort were reading at 4. They need more. So I have a sneaking suspicion that the Finns do teach their bright DC well before 7. I think they might be better at educating the under 5s. Possibly parents are less diverse and value education. Different cultures and different values. I doubt they have a NHS. No one normal has that immense drain in resources either.

I bet Finland does not have as many capable people living on benefits as there are in the UK.

The point is not about not teaching anything to under 7s.
Under 7s are not required to spend hours sitting at desks.
I went to school at 7 (in a different country). I learned to read when I was 5 abut did not learn to write until I started school.
In the UK 4 year old children are required to learn to write when their fingers are not ready yet.
There is no system in the curriculum. They are jumping from one topic to another. Only heavily tutored pupils gain systematic knowledge.

It’s not that simple though is it? The average worker in Finland is paying just shy of 30% income tax on their wages. They then pay between 16.5% to 23.5% in local municipal taxes based on their taxable income. Their healthcare system also isn’t free, although is subsidised and rates “reasonable” - 20 Euros to see a GP for example.

So, everyone is paying taxes and healthcare in the region of 45-50%. Higher earners much more than that. I doubt many people would be prepared to have their taxes raised by such a huge amount plus have to pay for the NHS on top.

Then, the schools hours are in the region of 8.45am to 2.15pm and they have 10 weeks off over the summer in addition to holidays at Christmas and Easter. There is a huge childcare burden on families.

I can see the appeal but how do you actually pay for it, and you have to acknowledge that the whole society needs to change to accommodate it. This is why parents choose private schools - they can get the education they want if they PAY for it.

Our new leader believes in less tax and less services , so ( like everything else - schools, health, the law) unless you’re prepared and able to pay, don’t you dare buy expect a first class service.

we can kid ourselves about “diverse” population or culture or bigger population or some other bollocks, but the fact is we have a shit education and health system based on who can pay and who can’t.

A big part of the success of secondary schools in London is down to the results of the London Challenge, a brilliant initiative which encouraged secondary schools to look at what made teaching and learning successful. Teachers examined their practice, and shared their findings with colleagues and other schools and it made a huge difference , the benefits of which carry on today. It did get rolled out to other areas but doesn’t seem to have had the same effect. Higher funding per pupil helps too admittedly . But in all fairness it is the teaching that makes the difference, London schools face huge issues, incredible pupil mobility, overcrowded homes so kids can’t study, many children in temporary accommodation, many bilingual children, a significant number of children coming into secondary school with little or no previous UK school experience or often no school experience at all. It really has little to do with wealth, some of the poorest areas of London have amazing secondary schools whose exam results and university places rival the best private schools in the country.

Finland’s PISA scores. They pretty much have the fastest declining standards in the OECD. I’m not sure that’s what we want to emulate.

it’s been a while since we’ve had one of these threads, but last time I checked I think it was only going to take another couple of rounds of testing before we out performed then. Certainly we are now even with them on maths. They may have halted the decline in reading skills in 15 year olds but there may have been some sort of intervention there because the equivalent of the DfE was worried about standards.

My child was very keen to start wringing. She had great pencil grip at 2/3. What we need is a system tailored to all. Not slower Dc. Some need more time and others don’t.

Our adjusted PISA for Maths is 9 places below Finland.

Our PISA for Reading is 8 -places below FInland,

If Finland is declining maybe they'll be as shit as us one day?

Wringing? I meant writing. She didn’t sit at a desk at primary. She sat at a table with other children. She worked collaboratively. She was excited by school. She wanted to learn. She didn’t want to play at age 5/6/7. She learnt to play the recorder. She learned lines for a role in assemblies. She learned to love books. She liked all the fantastic opportunities offered by the school and it didn’t involve just sitting at desks!

I wouldn’t want to be in Finland! Too close to Russia!

And a system where those who want to get the education they want - having to pay for it be is broken.

A healthcare system underfunded by tax not state insurance which is a postcode lottery for treatment as life threatening as cancer isn't fit for purpose. People in Finland are mystified when I talk to them about our hospital waiting lists, pensioners dying in corridors on bed, horrified.

In Finland you get the same hospital treatment wherever you live, no long delays, and the schools are all of the same standard wherever you live. If you want that high level of standards you have to pay for it. Everybody understands that. Over here we have a PM who is committed to tax cuts to the rich and cutting services to the poor.

You also forget to add childcare is heavily subsidised in Finland.

I suggest you have a read of this article how screwed our childcare provision is in the UK compared to Finland.

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/10/how-finlands-public-childcare-system-puts-britain-to-shame

that should be:

"And a system where those who want to get the education they want - having to pay for it, is a broken system."

You are never going to have the same system in a country with 5.5m people as one with 66m people. Just not the same. Different culture and different needs. They might need a big spend on defence soon.,

@BookwormButNoTime

'Then, the schools hours are in the region of 8.45am to 2.15pm and they have 10 weeks off over the summer in addition to holidays at Christmas and Easter. There is a huge childcare burden on families.'

This simply isn't true schools provide wrap around care from 6am until 6pm and will have holiday care for most of those 10 weeks there are usually 4 weeks when most people take holidays and the local authority will provide care in one setting for those key workers
Oh and wrap around care 5 days a week will cost about £50 a month obviously we pay a lot of tax and this is how it's cheap but it works
Childcare provision in Scandinavian countries is extremely good!

The UK might not be able to replicate the system in Finland - but something to aim for rather than accept a continuing downwards system in the UK.

I have Finnish friends living in Finland and they would agree with the comments made by @Suprima. The Finnish system often appears in random memes like the one you’ve posted but the reality is quite different.

@Parker231
There are very different challenges in the uk. We are not really going backwards. We have a vastly different population profile and umpteen cultures to assimilate. I don’t think we can be like other countries. Also Finland doesn’t have a global position and what they do isn’t all relevant to us.

Rubbish.

Germany have small classes with a much bigger population than ours, and it has loads of diversity with different cultures.

Its simple, in the UK we have a system which says unless your wealthy, get what you're given and be grateful. But people continue to not face the hard truth and desperately come up with nonsense like small population and homogenous culture.

As for defence, Finland spends what we spend as percentage of defence budget, and that supports national service- something many in the UK would dream of bringing back . They need it with Russia on their border, they have more nuclear shelters than any other nation on Earth, they are ready for war at a moments notice, are we?

You can't avoid national service neither, you either serve in the Army or serve longer in humanitarian posts. I have friends who have taken the latter and worked in hospitals.

That is really interesting. Are you in Finland. (Genuine question, I’ve heard a lot about the wonders of the Finn system)