How To Choose A Good School

[Niye]

Hi everyone 👋 First time mumsnetter here. DS will start school in 2024 and we think now is a good time to start thinking about all things school.

Trouble is I am Indian. Have lived here a decade but that's just uni and then work. I have no frame of reference for how schools operate and more importantly, what makes a good school.

I understand that there are independent private schools , grammar schools where you can gain entry after sitting the 11+ exam and state schools.

I also understand there's Ofsted reports however given that the ratings aren't done annually, a past outstanding or good may not necessarily be a current reflection.

Therefore, if you could give me some pointers please on what to look for during open days / pre-arranged school visits, what questions to ask, what factors to consider (feeder schools?) then that will be great!

I understand that we need to apply to our choices within a certain time window. Any pointers on the application/process side of things we need to know would be much appreciated too please ☺️

If there are any members here from Sheffield then recommendations for schools in Sheffield (S7) will be great too.

Thank you so much for your time and help with this. I really don't know where to start! 💛💛💛

Check out locrating for more detailed data and reviews by school. It is a monthly subscription, but you can subscribe for one month at a time and quit anytime. I found it super helpful for more insight into the school, as well as figuring out catchment areas and likelihood of getting a place based on where you live.

some questions to consider:

• what does a good educational environment look like for YOUR child? In as much as you can know t this stage, some kids will thrive in a bigger class, some won’t. You might anticipate needing special support, or have a kid that really needs lots of outdoor time
• how are you getting to school everyday, and what does the school run look like practically. I totally underestimated the impact on my life and I would even recommend doing a couple trial runs to see what it is like
• what wraparound care will you need and what can the school offer. My kids first school had before/after school care in theory but massively insufficient to demand so no chance of getting a spot. They are now in private school where lots of that is either included or easily arranged
• are you planning on moving? If not then your options may be really constrained depending on how oversubscribed some schools might be in your area.

i am also an adult immigrant to the UK(American) so find lots of things confusing, and no one ever explains because everyone grew up in the system and take it for granted. The process for entering reception in a state school is pretty well defined, and should be posted on you local government website. Private schools are a bit different depending on if they are selective or not.

one personal observation about ofsted is that what it measures is not necessarily the things important to you or your child. Mine were in an ‘excellent’ rated school, but I found them so laser focused on getting class scores in reading and math to a certain level that they neglected other areas of enrichment (science, art, time outside, etc.) in retrospect I think we would have been happier at a ‘good’ rated school that was a bit less focused on scores and offered a more rounded experience

Thank you so much for this Labraradabrador ☺️☺️ really appreciate it. And I think you're so right about thinking about what DS would need and which school fits Vs going purely by Ofsted.

We are lucky with schools a short 10-15mins walk away and even shorter drive but yes we will need to trial the school run because I imagine it's a very different road scenario during drop offs and we've never had to deal with that before!

Thanks so much!

You are right about OFSTED ratings - they’re not that helpful really. If a school is recently rated ‘Good’ that’s something you can go on but certainly any of these ‘Outstanding’ schools that haven’t been inspected in the last 5+ years be wary. We had two ‘Outstanding’ schools in our area that hadn’t been inspected in a really long time and they are now both ‘Requires Improvement’. It’s just meaningless. But just because a school ‘Requires Improvement’ it doesn’t mean it’s not the right fit for your child.
Schools are very happy for you to visit - pre-arrange obviously! The Headteacher or Deputy will give you a tour and you can get a good feel for it and ask questions.
As a pp said, you need to think of practicalities as well. Distance and wraparound care was a big factor for us.
I recommend you look at which schools around you will work on a practical level - so taking drop offs into account etc and then ring them up and book a visit. That will also really help you get a feel for the English education system if you feel somewhat in the dark about it, whoever shows you around will be happy to give you loads of info and it will then also be specific to their school.

I understand that we need to apply to our choices within a certain time window. Any pointers on the application/process side of things we need to know would be much appreciated too please

You apply online and it’s all done via your local authority. The problem with ‘choosing a school’ which is also worth mentioning - you don’t actually get to choose unfortunately. You give a preference, up to 3 schools and then you are allocated a place. Most do get their first choice I believe, but it does depend on various factors. I can’t remember what the order of importance is but priority is given to looked after children - so children who are adopted or fostered, children with an EHCP for special educational needs or disabilities, having a sibling at the school, distance from the school among the things. You can appeal if you don’t get what you want. But if you choose a school that is not close to you and is oversubscribed, with lots of siblings waiting to join that year, chances are you won’t get in. So having a variety of options you would be happy with is useful.

1. School should have nice, decent, friendly atmosphere with nice kids in the class (sadly you won’t know this till you get there)
2. See above

In my experience, as a retired teacher and grandparent, Outstanding means good at paperwork and box ticking. Good probably means the children are put first. Cynical moi?

If you are looking at State schools...
First priority... look at the admissions criteria for your area. It does vary. Our rural area is three preferences for example, in London its six. Admissoons criteria often looks like

1. Looked After children... Children in authority care. This is normally the highest admissions category.
2. Sibling... children with another child in same household already at school.

3 Distance to school.

However thre can also be Religious criteria, Priority Admissions areas (formal catchment areas), feeder schools for certain Secondary schools, "Nearest School" priority... it can be simple or complex! The council should publish how many were typically admitted under each category.

After you've worked what schools you can realistically get a place in, you can then decide which schools you like more. Up until 2019, they published Data on how well the pupils achieved the Government standards at 11yo but I don't believe this has restarted again post Covid so again this data is out of date.

In my opinion the results at the end of the school are very important that's why I took a closer look to the maths and english results (in three years), you can check them on the gov.uk website. www.gov.uk/school-performance-tables
Also I checked the distance between the primary school and the closest big road so the air in the school garden will be better.

I think you are in a very decent area of Sheffield. When the open days are advertised, go and have a look round. S7 is long and thin and goes from Sharrow Vale to Abbey Dale so pretty middle class. My favourite area of Sheffield.

As explained above, work out which schools are local to you and which are realistic. Ask nearby parents which schools they use. What uniforms do DC wear as they go by your house? If you use a nursery, what do other mums think? Start getting ideas about which schools people like. If an Ofsted report is RI and recent, I would try and avoid but Sheffield is a 2 university city and your area is full of professionals. I suspect the schools are all good!

I paid for membership to schoolguide.co.uk and found it really helpful. I wouldn't have got through the application process without it!

Eventually got into an Ofsted-rated 'Good' school, not outstanding, but highly rated by generations of locals!

One thing that I didn’t think about with my children was that they went to nursery from aged 1 while I worked and I kept them there until starting school but in hindsight I’d have done their last year at the preschool attached to the school as most kids seemed to that and all knew each other when they started school. It wasn’t a big deal but I would do that if I had my time again.

Secondly, lots of outdoor space was important to me and the clubs that they offer. Not all schools are lucky enough to have fields.

Going to a nursery attached to a school doesn’t guarantee entry to that school. Usually. However if you choose a nursery where DC will get into that school, it’s a real bonus. Again it’s homework that matters. Will DC get into that school and meet the entry criteria? Choosing a nursery miles away (eg near work) and hoping for the best won’t work in most cases.

The most useful thing we did was to go all the local possible school they all held both day time and evening sessions for prospective families. The day time sessions were particularly good as you could get a real feel for the school when the pupils were there. We felt the school we chose was a perfect fit for our DC.

Don't assume that only putting one school down as a preference will mean you will get a place at that school - that is not how the system works. If there is a chance that you won't get into your first choice make sure up have a 'banker' option (a school that is acceptable to you that you meet the criteria to get a place at) otherwise you will be assigned a school by the local authority - obviously this might be in an inconvenient location or be a school that has spaces because no-one has chosen it.

@Niye
The best source of information about the Sheffield application process will be the Sheffield City council web site. They should have info on how each school offered places too. What criteria were used and how places were allocated.

Each school in your area will have a web site. Look at that in detail. It will have the admissions policy on them. It gives you a lot of info about the school and look at the newsletters! This really tells you what makes the school tick. Also look for evidence of sport, art and music. I know some schools in Sheffield don’t have much outside space. So does this matter to you? Take a look round the neighbourhood snd see what facilities schools have.

Oh my word 💛 Thank you so much all @BeanieTeen @CaptainMyCaptain @OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit @PuttingDownRoots @Retrievemysanity @TTCMumof1 @Thereisnolight @TizerorFizz @rujik2

This is such great advice! Thank you so much for your time. I feel like I now know how to approach this and where to start. Massive relief!

Have a great evening everyone ☺️

We've just been through this process of choosing a school for DD who starts in September.

Few words of wisdom (!)

Ofsted ratings really do not mean anything. I got so hung up on this when we were looking. The school we were allocated was rated Good this March and, like others have said, this will probably reflect a more rounded education rather than a school that is like a factory processing line on getting results at the expense of other things.

Go and visit the schools. Cliched as it will sound, you really will get a "feel" for the school and will know if it is a good fit for your child. The school that I initially thought would be the best school for DD on paper didn't match the reality.

Don't be put off by a bigger school - there are pros and cons for both. A bigger school will have greater funding, more resources and more staff, including specialist staff.

If wraparound is important, check that the school offers this. My NCT made this mistake and now has now wraparound care as the school she applied for doesn't provide it.

Look at historical admissions data on your local authority website - this will tell you information such as how many applicants they received in previous years, whether they were oversubscribed and what tiebreaker distances were.

Whilst everybody will say "it's a low birth year" that really doesn't mean anything! The intake for September 22 was meant to be a low birth year, but the school that DD is going to had 30 siblings. Had this been a one form school we would not have got in. It's 60 entry, so effectively one class is siblings and only 30 new children with no school connection were allocated a place.

Be realistic about your choices - you may not have the choices you think you have - again look at data.

Finally, I asked the same question on the local community board on FB. Always helpful to hear first-hand experiences of the school from other parents.

@janie87

Recent Ofsted inspections are really useful. Old ones are not. They describe past events that may not stack up today. However one done in the last 2 years is certainly worth reading. Ofsted are simply not wrong. Schools don’t do box ticking as someone said above. Schools work really hard to ensure great teaching and great progress. If the evidence shows that neither is happening , (snd you can check progress snd outcomes yourself) why would Ofsted think the school is Outstanding? It plainly isn’t. The difference between outstanding and good is a fine line. Between good and inadequate is a chasm. Most parents cannot judge a school. Ofsted inspectors have the insight and knowledge to know what a good school really looks like. Why on earth wouldn’t someone tap into that knowledge and then check to see if the recommended improvements have been made?

it’s also far too easy to just look at YR in isolation. Look at what is available for older children. Look at the whole school. Having worked in education and been a governor, I’ve never ever seen a factory school. I’ve seen brilliant schools that make a difference and are embedded in a supportive community.

Recent Ofsted inspections are really useful. Old ones are not. They describe past events that may not stack up today. However one done in the last 2 years is certainly worth reading. Ofsted are simply not wrong. Schools don’t do box ticking as someone said above. Schools work really hard to ensure great teaching and great progress. If the evidence shows that neither is happening , (snd you can check progress snd outcomes yourself) why would Ofsted think the school is Outstanding? It plainly isn’t. The difference between outstanding and good is a fine line. Between good and inadequate is a chasm. Most parents cannot judge a school. Ofsted inspectors have the insight and knowledge to know what a good school really looks like. Why on earth wouldn’t someone tap into that knowledge and then check to see if the recommended improvements have been made?

Never heard such high praise for OFSTED before @TizerorFizz Are you an inspector? 😄

We started out by looking on the map (council website) for the local schools closest to where we lived. As we were on a council boundary we also looked at schools in the neighbouring county (you apply once through your home county).

Then we looked at the stats (again, council website) for numbers admitted in previous two years and also the furthest child admitted. That tells you whether you stand much chance of getting a place from your address, although the distance will vary between school years.

We then went to open days at the four schools that we thought we stood a reasonable chance of getting into. The closest one we really didn't like. It became apparent the next closest we were too far away (it had got more and more popular as time went on!) and two that were in neighbouring county and slightly further away but which we stood a higher chance of getting a place at. There were no church schools so that wasn't a factor.

The open days gave us an opportunity to get a feel for them and ask questions. We then put the one we liked best first and thought we stood a good chance of getting into (which wasn't the closest school!), then in order of preference. We got our first choice.

There were some people at nursery who didn't really think it through and put the over-subscribed schools first even though they lived far past the furthest child admitted. They didn't look at next county even though those schools not that far away. They ended up getting none of their preferences and were allocated a failing school miles away.

OFSTED ratings - all the ones we applied for were good, one had 'outstanding' elements. We thought one was a lot worse than the others. We've since relocated so had to move schools and decided against the one that was rated outstanding ten years ago as no idea what it would now be.

Don't necessarily be put off by 'requires improvement'. A school given that rating a year or two ago will have had a lot of resources put into it. Read the report and find out what the problem areas are - if you want a Reception place and the problem areas identified are in years 5 and 6 then the school has plenty of time to sort that out.

@RidingMyBike
No. They do not get extra resources. That’s a myth. They can refocus their budget but they won’t get more teachers. They might focus on CPD for teachers. They might change SLT if SLT cannot improve the school but in general, a wide ranging and accurate analysis needs to be done of all areas for improvement and a rigorous plan devised with constant monitoring to make sure it is effective. It takes a lot of effort to improve and there’s often pain before that happens. Some schools have been RI then good then back to RI again. They yo-yo. The key info is sustained improvement, not a one off for 12 months. That’s hugely difficult for parents to judge.

@TailSpinner
No! Don’t have anything to do with Ofsted but as a Governor I took numerous courses about what they look for. I didn’t want to let my schools down by being poorly informed. I really do not think recent ofsted reports are not wrong. They are based on school generated data. They look at the evidence for that data and judgements made by the school. Good schools know exactly what ofsted will say! Good schools already know their strengths and weaknesses and plan to improve the weaknesses. Ofsted respect this but will report that a school needs to improve if it does. Therefore a good recent report is not box ticking for a school. The school snd the governors must have accurate data and make sure that they are improving the school snd not coasting. The heads I’ve worked with work extraordinarily hard to run great schools snd no ofsted judgement would be a surprise.

Sorry @TizerorFizz I phrased it badly - I didn't mean they'd get more resources as in teachers, I meant in terms of support for training focussed in particular areas, probably restructuring/changing the SLT. Friend is an experienced school governor and chose to put her kid into a requires improvement school for this reason when she relocated, rather than one of the ones with a ten year old outstanding rating.

It is really interesting seeing how schools respond to a requires improvement. The school DD started at (we left because of a work relocation for me, we were very happy with the school!) had been rated good but had had criticism for its EYFS provision in the past. They'd moved staff around and recruited a new experienced EYFS lead who'd made loads of changes.

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/

I found this helpful,

@RidingMyBike
Choosing RI with no background info can be a risky strategy. I know quite a few schools that cannot keep their Good rating after being RI. They slip back again. In fact some become inadequate. Not all schools respond well to RI. The main reasons for this are Head moving on and inability to keep high quality staff who improve the school. Children leave and it’s a downward spiral. These are always schools in challenging areas that cannot keep improving. So if it’s a blip, and you know that, choosing RI might work. At some schools it’s just not a given that there’s sustained improvement. I also found schools with RI did less music, sport and school trips. In fact they are often really focussed on sats - more than outstanding schools! They need those results more!

I don’t think a 5-10 year old report is worth anything much. However lots of previously outstanding schools do retain their ethos and again, if you can compare results and progress from published data, they still might be very good. Any parent looking at schools should look at as much data as possible. They should also visit, read newsletters, look at ks2 provision and evaluate what school will suit DC - if you get a realistic choice of course!!! Plenty of parents don’t.