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Ehcp questions

40 replies

BiscoffSundae · 12/07/2022 18:58

Thought I would ask on here as asked this on a Facebook ehcp group but wow they are really unfriendly on there! So dd currently has a ehcp banding level is 3 is this considered high ? I’ve been told by her senco to get into a special school they mostly go on the banding (the group I’m on have said the opposite and said that the banding is irrelevant to parents) but I just wondered if level 3 banding is considered high? They wouldn’t answer that and told me basically it was nothing to do with me even though it’s my daughters ehcp and I’m just trying to understand it as the senco said that she would stand a higher chance the higher the banding is and wants to apply for level 4 banding as she feels she is level 4

OP posts:
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LargeLegoHaul · 13/07/2022 09:04

In regards to the ignoring expert advice: the provision in a plan should come from experts by allowing the la to write the provision to suit a setting this is what is happening.

Again, I haven’t said otherwise, please quote where I have. You can’t, because I haven’t. Not once have I posted any amendments should be made on the LA’s whim without evidence. I know full well how it should work. I’m not the one posting incorrect information such as the EHCP can only be amended following review, which as posted up thread the SEN Regs say otherwise.

A child/ yp's needs do change over time. The child should be placed in a setting which can meet those needs and make the provision.

Yes, and plenty of DC have needs that change around the time they move from MS to SS and some are reassessed which is why provision is often amended around the same time. I know needs outside school are often social care needs, you have completely missed the point. I was highlighting how needs and provision needed can be different in different settings since you seem to think a child’s needs and the necessary provision are always the same.

No, I do not agree that a child who needs 1:1 in ms may not need it in ss in those circs. Essentially what you are saying is that locking the child in whether a unit, classroom or building solves the problem. It doesn't, what should be looked at is why the child is leaving; is it sensory? Is it because of poor communication? Are they scared? Do they need movement breaks? Do they want to see their nan? If it is safety awareness then there is a bigger argument for 1:1. Getting to the route of it and working the way back is more helpful. A 1:1 would be better placed to do this.

No, I am not. Please do not put words into my mouth. I didn’t expand further than a couple of sentences because it’s not relevant to the thread but there are plenty of reason why a pupil might be a flight risk in MS but not in a secure SS that have nothing to do with being locked in. Many experts, even those undertaking independent reports, do see that some DC do not need 1:1 in SS like they do in MS. Otherwise you would see everyone who appeals with 1:1 in MS be awarded 1:1 in SS via Tribunal and you don’t.

If a plan is written to suit the setting

Again, you are misrepresenting what I have posted. I explicitly said to you previously I was not meaning B&F should be written to fit I.

not on the la or schools say so.

Again, nowhere have I said it should be, please quote where I said none of this done on school or La say so and without reassessment. Many DC are reassessed prior to/just after starting SS where recommendations change.

As much as it could benefit a child it could really hinder another.

Please re read my posts. I did post some and sometimes and posted not all.

All provision detailed should be from experts not based on what the setting can provide or what the la want to write.

I haven’t said otherwise.

In this example i would think the child should start with the dedicated therapy and have the bdnefit of all the indirect therapy then when the evidence points to it reduce the direct therapy on the advice of the treating therapist not prior to starting in order to shoe horn the provision to meet need.

For some DC that expert evidence will be there from the start. Please stop twisting what I post, I have not said provision should be shoehorned to meet need.

getting the 1:1 detailed in the AR minutes, requesting sar's and thinking about getting other reports

All of which have been previously suggested to OP in other threads under this name and previous names. OP has already spoken to IPSEA.

itsgettingweird · 13/07/2022 09:20

If she needs 3 staff to persuade her in I'd be looking at an independent school (I'd look at a girls one) for pupils with SEMH.

And get the EHCP tightened up to state she needs this.

Unfortunately the truth is a full time 1:1 is about 16k a year. A specialist placement is about 100k.

The cheaper option allows her to access an education but the more expensive one will allow her to shine and learn.

Las only have to provide somewhere to meet need so will always choose cheapest option. But you can win with a fight.

And as seagull as it sounds if she goes to the named placement and it fails you'll have a greater chance of getting her what she actually needs - but the damage will be done by then.

LargeLegoHaul · 13/07/2022 09:44

Unfortunately the truth is a full time 1:1 is about 16k a year. A specialist placement is about 100k.

Although some do, not all SS placements, especially none independent ones, cost anywhere near £100k. This report from 2020 using figures from 17/18 gives the average cost for maintained SS as £23k and £40k for NMSS and indie SS. Costs will be more expensive now and there are probably more up to date figures if you wish to research but many still aren’t near £100k. And there can be much more to a MS placement than 1:1 alone which is why MS can sometimes be the more expensive option. DS3’s EHCP in MS costs over £30k and it would be cheaper for the LA to try to name some SS. I know there are others in similar situations, including some on MN as I know I have discussed it with them previously on threads.

Justrealised · 13/07/2022 09:55

@LargeLegoHaul to be clear what I sm saying repeatedly is that provision should come from expert/ professionals. The setting should not be a factor. A setting should be named that can make the provision detailed. Many tribunals are won on this basis especially where it is a ms v ss.

You have detailed many times that you feel provision can change with a move from ms to ss and given examples of therapy and a child who is flight risk. I have detailed why this isn't the case. If the evidence is there from the start then thats the evidence the provision should be wrote from but that provision shouldn't be detailed on the basis of a move to ss. Having the evidence from the start suggests that direct therapy shouldn't have been used go start with and could be contributing to any needs.

A million and one things could happen that requires a change of setting and the plan has to be able to be transferred.

Yes you have used sometimes, some and not all but that's the point it isn't every child. By following the process needs, provision, setting this is accounted for.

Yes the la can amend a plan when they feel like but it is rare and when this occurs parents are still given the option of a meeting with an la rep and the process is the same in regards to representations, appeal etc. A crafty parent could use in the same way as an ar meeting to inform the minutes, request other professional input, reports etc.

You seem more concerned with arguing with me than helping the op.

LargeLegoHaul · 13/07/2022 10:21

to be clear what I sm saying repeatedly is that provision should come from expert/ professionals.

Again, to be clear, I have repeatedly told you I haven’t said otherwise and asked you to quote where you think I have which you have failed to do because you can’t, as I haven’t.

A setting should be named that can make the provision detailed. Many tribunals are won on this basis especially where it is a ms v ss.

Again, I haven’t said otherwise.

You have detailed many times that you feel provision can change with a move from ms to ss and given examples of therapy and a child who is flight risk. I have detailed why this isn't the case. If the evidence is there from the start then thats the evidence the provision should be wrote from but that provision shouldn't be detailed on the basis of a move to ss. Having the evidence from the start suggests that direct therapy shouldn't have been used go start with and could be contributing to any needs.

No, you have tried to twist what I have posted and put words in my mouth. Needs and provision can need to change when a child needs to move from MS to SS. Not necessarily because of the move but because needs change which maybe why a move is necessary in the first place. You also mention perhaps look at things like sensory needs, scared, movement breaks as to why the child is leaving but are these not covered by the change of environment I mentioned in my post at 22.09 yesterday.

A million and one things could happen that requires a change of setting and the plan has to be able to be transferred.

I haven’t said it otherwise.

Yes you have used sometimes, some and not all but that's the point it isn't every child. By following the process needs, provision, setting this is accounted for.

Again, I haven’t said otherwise. You seem to be generalising my posts to everyone when I have repeatedly posted it won’t be all DC.


Yes the la can amend a plan when they feel like but it is rare

It might be rare in your LA but it is not rare everywhere, and is a possibility. You said “cannot” which presumably meant cannot rather not very often. I know of at least a dozen cases where this has happened across at least 7 LA’s.

and when this occurs parents are still given the option of a meeting with an la rep and the process is the same in regards to representations, appeal etc.

Exactly what I posted.

You seem more concerned with arguing with me than helping the op.

No, I’m simply replying to your posts, I have posted my advice to OP in this thread and other threads, but if you think I am “more concerned with arguing” with you the same could be said for you, could it not.

Justrealised · 13/07/2022 10:56

@LargeLegoHaul I'm a bit lost as to what you're arguing with me about if you agree with most of what I've posted and I've said ehcps can be amended at any time (in doing it without ar they still have to follow a process which gives the same ops as an AR).

It is rare across the country and from the sound of it in your local LA's in relation to amendment by ar. AR's should happen yearly to each ehcp ofcourse most amendments come from AR's.

"No, you have tried to twist what I have posted and put words in my mouth. Needs and provision can need to change when a child needs to move from MS to SS. Not necessarily because of the move but because needs change which maybe why a move is necessary in the first place. You also mention perhaps look at things like sensory needs, scared, movement breaks as to why the child is leaving but are these not covered by the change of environment"

haven't tried to twist your words at all. The move from ms to ss shouldn't result in changes to b and f, the changes to b and f should happen before and should be the basis for the setting change.

Sensory, scared etc are needs and the setting will be making provision to meet them which should be detailed in the plan. The provision should be identified prior to the setting so that the setting can say if they can meet the child needs, require extra funding etc. You can't just lump those in as environment. Sensory needs especially will need to be handled and detailed expertly so that the right provision is being made.

Special schools are all different and offer different provision. Placement in ss doesn't mean that additional provision and funding isn't required or that provision shouldn't be specified and quantified. It also doesn't mean the child's needs will be met.

Any school has to have a good idea of needs and required provision before saying if they can meet them.

LargeLegoHaul · 13/07/2022 11:14

I'm a bit lost as to what you're arguing with me about if you agree with most of what I've posted

Again, I am not arguing I am replying to your comments, there is a difference.

I've said ehcps can be amended at any time (in doing it without ar they still have to follow a process which gives the same ops as an AR). It is rare across the country and from the sound of it in your local LA's in relation to amendment by ar. AR's should happen yearly to each ehcp ofcourse most amendments come from AR's.

You didn’t originally. You posted ”The plan cannot be changed without a review or a reassessment of need which I’m guessing hasn’t happened.” which is what I was correcting. Not all the LA’s I know it has happened in are local. They stretch from the south to north and east to west. I didn’t say most amendments didn’t come following AR or reassessment of needs, but it is possible for for LAs to amend out with AR/reassessments and is not so rare it doesn’t happen. It isn’t helpful to tell the OP it can’t happen when it can which is why I originally responded to that part of your post.


haven't tried to twist your words at all.

Have to disagree, since you have posted repeatedly I have posted B&F should be amended to fit I, which is not what I said. Not to mention ”Essentially what you are saying is that locking the child in whether a unit, classroom or building solves the problem.” which is categorically not what I posted at all. You seem to think I have said lots of thinks I haven’t, I’m not sure why.

The move from ms to ss shouldn't result in changes to b and f, the changes to b and f should happen before and should be the basis for the setting change.

This is what I have said. That is what ”Not necessarily because of the move but because needs change which maybe why a move is necessary in the first place” means.

You can't just lump those in as environment.

Yes, you can when talking on a forum rather than a legal document, especially when it isn’t even relevant to the OP. Sometimes some (note sometimes and some) sensory needs are down to the environment, and a change in environment is all that is necessary. The same for being scared. I did not say ”Sensory needs especially will need to be handled and detailed expertly so that the right provision is being made.” so please refrain from saying I have.


Special schools are all different and offer different provision. Placement in ss doesn't mean that additional provision and funding isn't required or that provision shouldn't be specified and quantified. It also doesn't mean the child's needs will be met.
Any school has to have a good idea of needs and required provision before saying if they can meet them.

I haven’t said otherwise. Please quote where I have.

Justrealised · 13/07/2022 11:45
  1. No I didn't originally but I did following yet you keep going on about this. The LA's may amend in this way but in comparison to AR's it is rare. If it happens this way the process is very similar.
  1. Yoh did use the example of moving to a "secure" ss as a possible reason to remove 1:1 with a flight risk child. A secure school is a locked school whether that is the classroom, the unit or thd school it is still locked.
  1. Saying we are speaking generally and not about a legal document is generalising in the same way I referred to amendments at AR's. Being clear about the provision not being part of the environment and requiring specifying in F is helpful to the op. By lumping them all in with environment and talking generally it belittles the importance of them znd the necessity of expert help with the
Is to negate damage which not having could do. My comment like many of yours is in reply saying that this needs to happen.

Not every comment I've made is in opposition to yours, some are there to aid the op aswell as in sensory needs requiring expert support or in regards to the schools. I haven't quoted you because not everything is to argue some is additional information to aid understanding and try to move the conversation on. You accused me of twisting words but you seem to be giving it a good go. You seem really defensive, this is supposed to be helpful for the op.

I'm acutely aware that in the sen world many parents defend their position and choices fiercely sometimes even when their situation isn't being debated. (You haven't said the opposite of this, this is a comment for conversation, I'm not going to clarify this every time so please stop taking every remark as a direct opposition to something you've said).

Justrealised · 13/07/2022 11:48

Op I'm very aware that this thread has been taken over and I'm sorry for that. Please do contact sossen or ipsea to discuss your situation. Have a think about Sep also as I doubt this will be resolved by then and how you're going to move this on.

I think the importance of getting section b and f detailed, specified and quantified has been shown. This is usually key in getting the right setting. Good luck

LargeLegoHaul · 13/07/2022 12:09

yet you keep going on about this.

The only reason I mentioned it again is because you posted I've said ehcps can be amended at any time (in doing it without ar they still have to follow a process which gives the same ops as an AR).

Yoh did use the example of moving to a "secure" ss as a possible reason to remove 1:1 with a flight risk child. A secure school is a locked school whether that is the classroom, the unit or thd school it is still locked.

Yes, I did because sometimes it is correct, not always but sometimes. But not as you have interpreted it and not just because it is secure since I also included change of environment in the same sentence. Sometimes a child can need (as in recommended by reports) 1:1 full time in MS because they are a flight risk because the environment (e.g. too busy, noisy, not the right level curriculum, not visually stimulating…) isn’t right for them, but then need (again as in recommended by reports) a SS, where they happen to not need 1:1 at all times because the environment (everything already listed and much more) meets their needs better and on the odd occasion they do bolt the site is secure.
 That isn’t making B&F fit I which is what you said I had posted.

Saying we are speaking generally

But I haven’t said we are speaking generally. What I said is including sensory issues under the word environment is sometimes appropriate which isn’t the same thing. Sometimes a certain type of environment can be provision necessary for the pupil’s sensory needs.

By lumping them all in with environment and talking generally it belittles the importance of them znd the necessity of expert help with the
Is to negate damage which not having could do.

Except, I wasn’t belittling it, I was summarising using a couple of sentences as it wasn’t relevant to the OP so pointless going into detail on this thread.

Not every comment I've made is in opposition to yours

Lots of it came across that way which is why I responded.

You accused me of twisting words but you seem to be giving it a good go. You seem really defensive, this is supposed to be helpful for the op.

Nice bit of patronising twaddle. I am not arguing, I am not being defensive, I am not twisting your words. I am responding to your posts. I had already posted helping the OP.

Justrealised · 13/07/2022 12:31

Change in environment is provision which would need detailing in itself if you are suggesting low arousal. A secure site is a locked environment.

In regards to generalisation you made a comment about it being a forum not a legal document.

The need to specify and quantify section f cannot be said to parents enough. Many fall foul of this and weak words, properly defined b and f is key to educational provision and is very appropriate to a thread discussing banding use by an la. Having these defined renders the banding useless as the provision is then enforceable by jr and not at the discretion of the setting spending the funding appropriately. This is hugely important and elegant to the ops situation.

You can't say detailing the environment isn't relevant enough so that you summarise but then bang on about the environment making a difference. With ehcps the devil is in the detail. In theory a ms could have a suitable environment and some ms are secure too. Detailing that environment is very relevant because it is provision.

Not patronising twaddle this is how you are coming across. I've tried to move the conversation on a few times but you keep coming back with argumentative comments rather than constructive conversation. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get me to agree to.

LargeLegoHaul · 13/07/2022 12:47

Change in environment is provision which would need detailing in itself if you are suggesting low arousal. A secure site is a locked environment.

I haven’t said it wouldn’t need detailing.


In regards to generalisation you made a comment about it being a forum not a legal document.

Yes, I commented it’s a forum not the legal document, in that it didn’t need explaining in great detail especially when not relevant to the thread. That is not the same as generalising.

The need to specify and quantify section f cannot be said to parents enough. Many fall foul of this and weak words, properly defined b and f is key to educational provision and is very appropriate to a thread discussing banding use by an la. Having these defined renders the banding useless as the provision is then enforceable by jr and not at the discretion of the setting spending the funding appropriately. This is hugely important and elegant to the ops situation.

I haven’t said otherwise. I said focusing on the environment wasn’t relevant which isn’t the same as B&F being or not being detailed, specified and quantified.


You can't say detailing the environment isn't relevant enough so that you summarise but then bang on about the environment making a difference.

I didn’t say it wasn’t relevant at all. Detailing the specifics of the environment isn’t relevant on a thread where it isn’t relevant to the OP and was originally used as an example to explain a point unrelated to the original post. Why would I go into detail when that wouldn’t be relevant to the OP?

With ehcps the devil is in the detail.

I didn’t say it wasn’t.

Detailing that environment is very relevant because it is provision.

I didn’t say it shouldn’t be detailed, I said it wasn’t relevant to the original post.
 Different things.

Not patronising twaddle this is how you are coming across. I've tried to move the conversation on a few times but you keep coming back with argumentative comments rather than constructive conversation. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get me to agree to.

I am not trying to get you to agree to anything, and I have said several times I am not arguing, I am responding to your posts. You say you have tried to move it on but that’s not how it is coming across. You keep saying I have posted things I have not, why would I not post replying to that.

LargeLegoHaul · 13/07/2022 12:47

NC fail.

Justrealised · 13/07/2022 13:40

@LargeLegoHaul i think the issue is that you read my comments or the way I write them comes across as everything I’m saying is a reply in direct response to something you have wrote. It isn’t My comments are partially in response but also in conversation with additional points/ discussion which isn’t all aimed at what you have said although maybe relevant.

I’m gonna say that we both agree on the following in order to hopefully help the op and any other parents reading who are struggling with this rubbish system.

  1. all educational needs should be listed in section b.
  2. provision to meet each and every need should be specified and quantified in section f so that no doubt is left as to what provision is to be made.
  3. the setting should be able to make all of the provision.
  4. the provision should be detailed in expert reports and this should be where the provision comes from. Other evidence can be used also for tribunal and is extremely helpful eg sars and meeting minutes.
  5. an ehcp can be amended via AR or at the whim of the la. In both occurrences the la should send a notice to amend, the parent should be given opportunity to make representations, both processes give access to a meeting and to appeal via tribunal following the amending final being issued.
  6. reports from other sources that the la issued ones are usually very useful.
  7. banding is irrelevant if section f is properly written.
  8. needs should be identified then provision detailed to meet them then the setting should state if they can provide what is needed.
sorry but I did laugh a little about the name change fail, it is something I would do (this is meant in jest in a friendly way)
LargeLegoHaul · 13/07/2022 13:46

I wouldn’t mind but I only NC’ed to PM someone I suspect I know IRL. As my mother would have said, I would forget my own head if it wasn’t attached these days.

Yes, I agree with your bullet points.

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