4yr old violence at school - do we change schools

[TwittleBee]

DS' behaviour at school has been progressively worsening and I'm questioning if perhaps after the 6 weeks holiday we should look to send him elsewhere.

Since he was 2 I have suspected he may have ASD and/or ADHD (like me) but no one has been supportive of a referral of an assessment until last month when the school SENCO finally said she believes she has enough evidence of his behaviour to support a referral.

But it took him spliting a class mate's lip open and pushing a classmate to the ground and strangling them before the school said his behaviour is extreme and they need to go down this route to seek funding for 1 to 1 support for him.

School initially said they believe his behaviour is because his speech is so poor (and tried to lay blame on us as a family, told us we should ensure we have books at home and make sure we talk to him.... we read to him daily and obviously talk to him, we have wonderful conversations and lots of role play games together... and have been attempting to seek support for his speech including going private). Speech therapy is having no effect.

Then they went on to say they think he is struggling because his fine motor skills are so poor and so he is getting frustrated. (Again they tried to lay blame on us, saying we should expose him to arts and crafts... if we aren't role playing we are being crafty.) But I don't believe he has poor motor skills, he has better application of nail varnish than I do! He often paints his and my nails in the most beautiful designs. DS tells me he doesn't try at school because its boring and so doodles and scribbles instead.

School then started to explain how defiant he is. How he will say he needs the toilet to avoid doing tasks etc. Or just refuses to work.

Until last month they didn't want to engage in a conversation about how we think they could support him in school, they didn't want to know our experiences at home with him etc.

Now they have started requesting meetings but the previous 2 have been more about how disruptive he is to the class and how hard work he is. How we need to manage his behaviour better as parents (we are doing what we can and are always looking to improve).

I also think they'll be refusing us the use of the Wrap Around Care too due to how much "trouble" he has been causing there and how they can't give him 1 to 1 support. They have been eluding to this.

This is longer than I thought it would be... anyway... Should we consider a SEN school? Or a different school that may be better equipped? Or do we need to manage this differently? I want what's best for DS (and his classmates too).

You're very unlikely to get him into an SEN school without an EHCP if you are in England. Especially at the age of 5. Do you think your relationship has totally broken down with the school now and you're best looking for another school and being honest about his difficulties and seeing what help they can provide? Or do you think now that school have accepted there is an underlying need and can start to assessment process he will be ok in the setting he is in now. Would moving to another school add further distress to a little boy who sounds like he is struggling

Does DS have an EHCP? As the answer to that will influence replies.

Which country do you live in?
Has he had any paediatrician or SALT assessments?

How does he behave at home?

Sorry I see you've got private SALT but its not working, what have they said about his difficulties?

Gross motor skills and fine motor skills are very different

We started private SALT but the school refused to engage and so the practitioner said she didn't think it would work without the School's suport so to continue waiting on the NHS list. He has been seeing NHS SALT for 2 months now, weekly at the school

I pushed the HV to push the school to support the referral to a paediatrician. We are on that waiting list as of last month. In the mean time we have been required to have a behavioural specialist come round weekly and advise us on how to parent, I was keen on this and excited she may have new ideas for us to support DS. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case yet, although I suppose it was nice to be told we are parenting exactly how we should be (silver lining etc)

At home his behaviour is very volatile. I see classic traits I had as a child and so I know what he needs 90% of the time to help him to avoid escalation of his behaviour. I am very good at reading when his senses are becoming on edge.

(We are in England)

@MissMaple82 is the applying of nail varnish and nail art not fine motor skills then and instead gross? He has amazing gross motor skills, learned to ride a bike without stabilises at the age of 2, can climb anything and is very efficient in running etc.

I just don't see him as having poor fine motor skills as he seems so delicate and precise when painting, writing and doing fiddly things (when he is in the mood to do them). Unless I've completely mis understood what fine motor skills are?

Perhaps I should add that the reason I suggest moving schools and perhaps a SEN school is because I've been suggested it by HV and by people who know us as a family. I hadn't considered it. But then my friend told me I am being selfish for keeping him in a school he isn't thriving in for our convenience (baring in mind we actually moved house to be closer to this school as we were pleased with their SEN policies and what they said they could provide but that'd not been our reality)

If he's not producing much work they may be assuming poor fine motor skills. Or holding pencil awkwardly. It could just be he's very disengaged or maybe sensory related?

The school not engaging with SALT but also saying he needs SALT is a bit of a red flag to me. I've been there with the constant meetings, and even getting an EHCP didn't help. In fact it made things worse(!)

I would still apply for an EHCP, it sounds like a move is needed. I'd look at all school options that are feasible. Not all SEN schools will be suitable either, and I'd be particularly careful if looking at SEMH provision that it's therapeutic based rather than behavioural.

You’re in a difficult position, OP. Having a child with SEN is not easy and you’re his biggest advocate.

I’m not sure how you’re “having amazing conversations” when his speech is so poor ( I know communication is made up different forms, etc). It’s also impressive that he can tell you school is boring so he draws or doodles. That’s very good communication even for a 4year old with good speech, I’d say.

It doesn’t sound like he’s in the right place for either him or his classmates. You don’t have to wait for school to get him 1:1. You should be taking charge of applying for an EHCP for him.
He must be frustrated somehow, if he’s hurt someone like this at 4.
Get him the help now- early intervention.

Do you do any work with him on identifying his emotions and working through them. He’s very young but he’ll get better at controlling them if he’s given the tools now.

A SEN school may well be a better fit, but you are unlikely to be offered a place without the school been named on a EHCP. You could try moving to another mainstream, but may then have to move again in a year or so, once you have secured a sen school place, which would be quite disruptive.

As the school are now acknowledging his difficulties, I'd be inclined to try and work with them, as a new school may waste more time 'gathering evidence'. I'd ask them to request a statutory assessment for a EHCP, and if they don't you can put in the application yourself. The LA will then have to assess his needs, and decide what suport he needs in place, which could be a special school placement or could be a package of suport at a mainstream (either this on or another if you feel the relationship has broken down).

This process should take 20 weeks, but moves to new schools are generally done at the start of term, so at best it would be after Christmas, and possibly even later if you need to go through appeals or wait for a place to become available. His current school can however get interim funding while the assessment is ongoing, so could get support in place in his current setting to improve things while he waits.

My DS's statutory assessment went on last September, and he'll be moving to his new school after the summer. However his current school got interim funding from when the application went in, so he's had 1:1 for the last year.

Is he is still 4 and in reception? Did he go to school nursery? I’m surprised you didn’t go down the delayed entry to reception for a summer born child. It might worth seeing if a school would be happy to do it at this stage.

I agree you’re not going to get him into a state SEN school without a EHCP. You need to get started with EHCP.

He did go nursery. We didn't look to delay him as he is very bright and seeks out information, he loves learning when it's something he wants to learn. He flourished in nursery.

His communication is amazing. His speech is poor as he struggles to control his mouth and tongue etc (I was the same too, and I do still struggle now). For example, if someone struggles to understand a word he cannot pronounce correctly, he will either act it out or think of a way to describe that word. He has brilliant abstract thinking and problem solving skills.

I shall Google about this EHCP and apply.

Regarding his emotions, yes I have been doing work with him on that. He does recognise at home what he needs and tells me what he needs. For example, water helps relax him so often he will explain he is feeling buzzy and needs a bath to calm down. But his emotions can go very quickly to an extreme place.

The main issues lately have been his peers calling him names and bullying him over his speech that causes him to act out violently. Unfortunately the school only concentrate on his violence and aren't addressing the other kids pushing him to it.

Older children have also been egging him on. Unfortunately he is easily influenced and seeks out sensory input and so will do some rather dangerous or gross things that the older kids encourage him to do as they find it funny when he then gets in trouble

At home his behaviour is very volatile. I see classic traits I had as a child and so I know what he needs 90% of the time to help him to avoid escalation of his behaviour. I am very good at reading when his senses are becoming on edge

If you know yourself what his triggers are, can you work with the school so that his teachers also get to know them? What do you do to prevent escalation of his behaviour?

www.ipsea.org.uk/pages/category/education-health-and-care-plans

SOSSEN are another good charity, both have free phone support lines, though they get busy so you may need to keep trying. Ipsea have bookable slots as well, again high demand.

That actually gave me chills because I knew a wee boy like that from DS's primary. He had a miserable time at school, was bullied relentlessly and school ALWAYS focused on what he did when he boiled over, rather than the little shites that had turned on the gas and put the pan on the hob.

I would move him, but I don't think he needs a SEN school - at least, where I am, his level of need wouldn't qualify him for a SEN school at all.

Get the referral and diagnosis if you can - you do not need school to refer you for anything by the way and I wish this myth would die a death - because that gives you a paper trail and a bit of power in the situation. But actually I'd look around you for another school. Yours sounds particularly hand-wringy and useless.

How would we refer without the school? The GP refused to help at all and the HV (and social services as school has involved them now due to his violence and putting a Year 5 pupil in hospital) have said they also can only put forward a successful referral with the school providing a supporting statement of the referral. They explained how his behaviour has to be witnessed in 2 settings etc?

@Tranquilsea that's what I have been attempting to do, they have requested a meeting end of term to discuss the possibilities for Year 1 and I hope to mention these descalation techniques. Issue is, a lot of them are to do with physical touch and I'm not sure teachers will do it? E.g. firm cuddle, light arm strokes, a wiggly arm shake (all dependent on what his issue is)

Yes, I see. I agree with you that the school probably won't be on board with that. Also it's just not possible in a classroom situation, it's only a solution when he is 1to1.

In that case I would take other people 's advice on getting an EHCP in place, as he appears to need 1to 1 to help him regulate his emotions.

DS is a leaner and seeks out physical contact to help him regulate, his school found the information helpful, so definitely share it. He has a 1:1 and will sit on her lap or right next to her leaning in when it's carpet time, or even just a hand hold helps. They also use weighted lap blankets or a weighted toy which emulates the sensation.