Preparing for ICS appeal

[Summer1310]

I've finally had my date through for ICS appeal it's mid July . I know exactly what I'm going to say when I have to present my case. However I'm unsure what I should ask the presenting officer who is the school headmistress she is lovely and very approachable she has never had to do an appeal before so I think she's just as unsure as me , their case is quite basic and just really explained school numbers and said if they admitted DD2 it would go over the legal limit.
anyone who's been through this any advice would be greatly appreciated what questions you asked .
I also wondered what questions I might be asked about my case?? I know every case is different I'm just very nervous and trying to prepare so any advice support is greatly appreciated.

I've linked my previous post which explains situation www.mumsnet.com/talk/primary/4560143-infant-class-size-appeal?reply=117590947

You should use your questions to explore any weaknesses in the school's case. In this instance, I would explore how they managed to end up going so far over PAN that this is an ICS case - based on your earlier posts, they are over PAN by 7 across Reception, Y1 and Y2. If there is any possibility that your child should have been at the head of the waiting list when they decided to go over PAN, I would explore that too. If they go over PAN, they must admit according to their admission criteria. They cannot pick and choose who to admit.

I gave up trying to predict what questions appeal panels would ask a long time ago. However, they should ask questions to clarify anything that isn't completely clear to them and to test out the strength of your case. The school is likely to use their questions to highlight any weaknesses in your case.

@prh47bridge Thankyou for your response, in their case they have mentioned going over PAN this year and in the past but have stated they have always stayed within the ICS limit of 30. DD2 is number 1 on waiting list now( so in theory child 22 ) when doing first admission round. I'm sorry if I sound really stupid but what question would you ask about the PAN.

I would simply ask why they have gone so far over PAN and see where that takes us.

@prh47bridge I've added to my questions ,Thankyou I hadn't even considered the Pan.

I know this may be completely irrelevant to my case but found it odd , the twin that was admitted to reception class as an excepted child as it took them over the limit they could except , rather than the being 31 in the R-1 class they have kept that class as 30 and moved an additional child in year 1 up so the 1-2 class has 31 ? I just assumed that the class the excepted child was in would need to be 31 , I'm probably completely wrong but just found it odd ??

This has been mentioned by n the case for my appeal

If there are no excepted children in Y1/2, they are breaking the law on class sizes. You are right - a class can only go over 30 if it contains an excepted child. The presence of an excepted child in another class doesn't help.

I did think it was odd , in all fairness tho it helps me out as I would only have to wait for 1 child to leave to gain a place via the waiting list rather than 2 if the class was at 31 , will stay clear of mentioning that in appeal

Regarding that one, admitting from the waiting list (in theory, anyway) happens when the year group in question falls below its PAN, not merely when a mixed year class including members of that year group goes below the maximum class size - if you have a mixed R/Yr1 class and a Yr1 child leaves, taking Yr1 below PAN, the offer would (should) be to the Yr1 at the top of that waiting list and if no waiting list for that year, the Yr1 place would (should) remain vacant. It should not be offered to a child on the Reception waiting list, because if the school then received a Yr1 application, at officially 1 under PAN in Yr1, they would have to accept it.

So if the panel don't ask first, ask the school to clarify at what point they would offer a place from the waiting list - only when the year group goes below PAN, or when it goes below the 'PAN plus X' number they decided to admit this year?

@MarchingFrogs Thankyou for your response, yes see what u mean , I know year 1 is 1 over PAN anyway however I don't know if there is anyone on waiting list .
Would u ask that during the schools case of appeal when I have chance to ask them questions ? I did email them about a month ago asking would I need to wait for 4 children to leave before I got offered a place ( if still at top of waiting list ) which they did not respond to , as if that's the case the only chance I have is appeal which is unlikely as it is as there is not much movement in school my DS starts year 2 in sept and no one has left his year!!

Sorry, thought I'd responded. The gist was, yes, ask at stage 1 when you are asked whether you have any questions about the school's case, but make sure that you phrase it in 'third party' terms, not mentioning your specific case. Get the school to state what their policy is - the panel should pick up on anything which doesn't fit with what the school should be doing according to the Admissions Code. Obviously, these questions may already have come from the panel, but if there was anything you didn't understand, ask anyway.

@MarchingFrogs Thankyou for your response. Yes will definitely ask as I'm going to ask why they admitted 3 over PAN and then will tie in this question of how many children would have to leave before a place would be offered to number 1 on the waiting list.
Do the Panel get to ask questions first ?

Hi, I won an appeal last week on the grounds of medical which has now pushed the reception class to 31 instead of 30. I was very honest with all my answers and provided all the relevant supporting documents, my daughter has now been given a place in the school for September and that school has also arranged for extra funding to give my daughter 1 to 1 support. It was a long shot as there were 7 appeals for the school and normally appeals don't win due to the class size but my daughter won due to her send needs etc.

@Mammytoacutie132 Thankyou for your response, oh that's brilliant I'm so pleased for you !! My is tomorrow I'm very nervous, how did u find the actual hearing ?? I'm really trying to stay positive and hope for the best

It is normal to be nervous. The panel will be used to it and will do their best to make it easier for you. From personal experience, I can say that doing your first appeal for your own child is very nerve wracking. Representing other people (which I have done occasionally) is much easier on the nerves.

@prh47bridge Thankyou so much for your kind words and all your support

if Your daughter has epilepsy and your son has autism then both are likely to meet the definition of a disabled person for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010. There are specific provisions in the EqA that protect disabled people and a dedicated education section. There is one further additional duty called the public sector equality duty. You could use these to argue that these duties outweigh the catchment criteria. I can’t see you lose anything by making the argument. Attached are some useful resources to read but if you have time to get some discrete legal advice then it may be worth doing so:

schoolleaders.thekeysupport.com/administration-and-management/ethos-equality/equality-requirements-and-procedures/public-sector-equality-duty-psed-in-schools/

www.gov.uk/government/publications/equality-act-2010-advice-for-schools

@Hodgewell1 Thankyou for your response, is there anything that springs to mind as my appeal is tomorrow ? I've just skim read whilest putting kids to bed and I read on the second one section 4 it mentions how u can treat disabled people differently if it's to benefit them , trying to think how to word that to possibly add in to statement ??

The points I would make are:

1. both your children are disabled persons under the Equality Act 2010 and benefit from its protection during the admissions process.

2. under the Equality Act 2010 School admission processes must not discriminate against or disadvantage disabled children, or those with special educational needs.

3. Admission authorities should give priority within their oversubscription criteria to children who are disabled.

4)They must set out clearly how they define social and medical need and what supporting evidence will be required, for example a letter from a doctor or social worker. they failed to do either 3 or 4 which means they have breached the public sector equality duty and the anti discrimination provisions protecting your two children as disabled persons/children.

5. explain the adverse impact it has on both your children in failing to allow your daughter to attend the same school.

good luck

@Hodgewell1 Thankyou so much i managed to add bits of what you said in which is greatly appreciated

Appeal hearing itself wasn't as bad as I was expecting , panel were nice and I felt comfortable to make all my points I'm now just waiting for the result

I just wanted to update and for anyone who finds themselves in this awful situation my appeal was successful!!

Thankyou so much for all the advice and support and taking your time out to get back to me !