Girls, friends, problems! How can I help my DD. This involves special needs so would be grateful for advice on that angle too.

[sandyballs]

My DDs are in Year 2, separate classes, and have been friendly with a girl (let's call her K) since reception. K is in DD1's class.
K has always been quite a full-on, possessive type and my two girls are quite laid back and didn't seem too bothered about this, although I was concerned that K was preventing them from mixing with other children. I've tried to invite lots of others back for tea etc to compensate.

Over the last few months, probably as my girls have got a bit older and more confident, they have tried to break away from K a little bit and join other groups at playtime but K has been furious, resulting in some scratching and bullying type behaviour, particularly with my DD2. I have discussed this with the teachers and they have promised to keep an eye on things. I have also discussed it with K's mum and dad who we are very friendly with, and she has had several sit-down conversations with K about it all, which does help in the short-term but then it all goes back to how it was.

I have posted on this before but can't find the thread. How can I help my DDs in this situation, and what would you do. DD2 was in tears this morning at the thought of going back to school and seeing K. Not because of the scratching but because she is desperate to play with her own friends in her own class but K follows her everywhere and the other girls get fed up with it and end up leaving DD2 out.

God it's all so complicated isn't it. Thank you for getting this far.

What makes it even more difficult is that K has special needs, she has been assessed as being at the level of a 4 year old, even though she is nearly 7, and this makes it very difficult for her to make friends. I have explained this many many times to my DDs, saying they must be kind to her etc etc, but at the end of the day I feel I must put them and their happiness first .

Blimey, the active convo is moving quick!

are the school doing anything except "keeping an eye on things" - which sounds a little bit feeble to me? glad to hear k's parents are friends of yours and seem to understand the situation. The obvious one is probably what you have already tried, which is involving other / more children and getting k involved with a larger group if she is able, so that it sort of reduces the stress on your dd2. I sort of get the feeling that there might be a lack of social skills for k and therefore a group might be more difficult.
The only thing i can think of is perhaps k's parents - and maybe also school, looking into "Social stories" which can be used at this sort of age (I think. the people who i do them with are older) to show a child what to do in a given situation, like when the person you want to play with is busy, you can do x. they have to be as close to a real situation as possible so that the child does not have to transfer the concept into another situation and it is more or less giving her something between a script and a set of rules, without it seeming too much like either of these things.

However much extra understanding K needs, your responsibility is to your dds, not her. She's got her own parents to fight her battles.

Definitely talk to the teacher about doing something more active than just 'keeping an eye on it' which clearly is a. a cop out and b. not working.

I keep thinking the school should be more involved in this. I will speak to the teachers again, but I don't think they see much of what goes on as it usually occurs in the playground. But what can they do exactly? I know that K has been kept indoors during playtime on a few occasions after hitting DD2. But it's water off a ducks back to her, she's so impulsive and hot-headed and just lashes out again if my two dare to play with anyone else. Her speech is poor so I think it could be frustration at not being understood very well.

I also don't think my DDs are angels, I'm sure there is a bit of verbal going on, along the lines of 'We don't want to play with you, we're fed up with you following us etc etc', which obviously makes K cross.

I'm trying to plan a little birthday party for my girls and they are adamant they don't want K there. Part of me agrees but I know she would be devastated and it would cause a lot of hassle with her mum, and it does seem rather cruel, given her special needs and lack of friends.

Her mum is obviously aware that K is very dependent on my two but instead of trying to get her to mix with others by inviting them round, she tries to plan loads of activities/outings outside of school with my two to cultivate the friendship, whilst I feel like backing away .

it is a hard one, you've got my sympathy
why don't you hit a compromise and have children of the dds choice to the party, and then have k over another night the same week? tell mum that you don't want k to be overwhelmed or something if you feel the need to explain.
K is not your responsibility, true, but if you are a friend of her parents then it doesn't make it as simple as "someone else's problem" and you are too much of a caring person, as obviously your girls are, to hurt k's feelings. How does k respond to rules (with "incentives" ...like bribery if needed)?

Thanks for replies.

DH thinks I'm getting too involved, that girls have these disputes all the time and I should just listen to our two and then forget it. But I think this particular case is slightly different, particularly when I see DD2 crying about it, she's so desperate to get involved with the girls in her own class, but I just can't see that happening with K around. This morning DD2 asked if she could go to a different school so K wouldn't be there.

I know K's mum would be very upset if I had a party and didn't invite her, even if I did invite her separately. As I would be in her shoes, I suppose.

Not sure what she is like with rules. I have wondered about having a little chat myself with her, without her mum there.

K is probably acting out of fear which is appropriate really for age 4 - she is hanging on for fear that new friends means that your girls will not want her any more.
My son has SN and there is LOADS that could and should be being done to help K and help your girls.

Ask the school about 'social stories' about sharing and friendship.
This needs to be 'sold' to her as an excercise in sharing and being friends - same as I have been doing with my DD who is five for the last years or so - just constantly reassure that more friends is fine and if you can't play together at one break then you can at the next.
She needs to be told that it will make your girls sad as she will not necessarily have this empathy naturally.
My DS now understands sharing and turn taking . He actually got it quite quickly. He just needed the reassurance that just because it wasn't time to play together now dosen't mean there will not be a chance to play later.
As other posters have said the school should be all over this and not just for the sake of your girls... if K can learn to manage relationships in a more measured way then HER chances of a fulfilling social life in years to come will improve hugely.

have had reasonable standard of rule-following from ds1's nutty friend (not sen but appalling behaviour i am not an ogre, honestly) along the line of "we do ..x... then have our tea / these stairs are very steep so we have to walk down them very slowly" (this little monkey is more used to shinning up and down via bannister) I don't know why he is so hyper but with two of mine to follow and a bunch of instructions he was ok. well, just.
no idea whether this would work. also had a 'chat' with my 4-yr old before big brothers birthday recently, reminding that it was DS1's day, and let's all try to be kind to one another so that he has fun - some cliche along those lines. it did work! Would this work on someone else's child, i don't know but would be tempted to try!
I think if your dds / dd2 will see it as a bad think if k is allowed to go to the party, then at the end i would be inclined to try to explain to the parents that her behaviour in school is the root of it, which should hopefully make somebody do something?

That sounds interesting. I think I need to arrange a meeting with both their teachers to discuss this.

THING not think

my concern is that the other children do not want to play with K and that this disallows your children from playing in a larger group

are your dds pulling back from playing with K because other children do not want to play with her? and if so, what is the school doing to help other children engage with K?

my dd is physically disabled and it has been during this year and last - Yr 2 and Yr 1 - that some children have started making things up like "You can't play here", meaning on the grass because of her disability, as a way of avoiding playing with her

we mentioned it straight away to her teacher as we don't want this kind of attitude from other children in her class; it leaves her dependent on a smaller circle of friends at a time when friendships shift and change. These children are at a very tender age when it comes to making opinions about children who are different from them

the school does need to look at this and make sure that other children in her class are not mean to K and are not excluding her

hi pagwatch!
you and me talking social stories again....

BTW, what sort of 'sn' does k have? It's not that i'm encouraging labels, just wondered if we could help better if we had more of an idea what is going on

Something Capp. mentioned rang a bell - the "circle of friends" intervention idea - I've come across it in an ASD context but obviously it could be extended to all children for whom socialising is complicated. Here is a link - it's described a bit programmatically on the link & I don't think 6/7 year olds need be so involved in the planning aspects, but it should give the teachers some very concrete ideas. Hope it helps.

She was very deaf as a baby/young child which wasn't picked up until about the age of 3.5/4. Subsequently her speech didn't develop as it should and she is very difficult to understand. She was recently assessed academically as being level with a 4 year old. She has one-to-one with a special needs teacher at the school and also visits a speech clinic weekly.

I think a lot of the other children can't understand her very well and therefore give up with her. My DDs said that no-one is nasty to her, as far as they are aware, but no one bothers with her particularly. I also think my two are being influenced by their peers in this way, now they are older and more aware of it all which saddens me but what can you do.

gigglewitch - well, tried and tested I guess. Or we are equally dreary
[waves]

COuld you invite K over for a 'special' after-school tea?

One of my son's friend's mother used to do this when my son wasn't in the inner sanctum of friends who were invited for the birthday treat. She made sure he still felt included and I was always touched.

I think she would still be very upset at being left out of party though Eliza. Great that your friend did that for DS though.

Anyway, things have moved on a little. After fretting all day yesterday about DD2 being so upset at K and not wanting to go to school etc. Had a chat with DD2 last night and yesterday K left her alone a bit more and let her get on with her own class/friends. Then this morning as we were walking down our hill I could see K at the bottom. Both my DDs whent hurtling down the hill, calling her name, and flung themselves at her, big hugs and kisses . So the way DD2 feels about her obviously changes daily, unless the space K gave her yesterday has improved things.

Either way, perhaps DH has a point and i'm getting a little too involved.

glad that things are working themselves out

I would never purposely exclude a disabled child from a party. Not because she would be upset, but because it gives a message to other children - as well unfortunately, tacitly, to other parents - that it is 'doable' to exclude children who are disabled

Please put your own dds first, your situation is almost identical to one me and my dd1 found ourselves in a few years ago. (except i don't have twins!
dd1 was always the little girl the teachers paired of the new children, asked to play with So and so etc. Well in the summer of Yr1 a little girl with ASD/Aspergers (im going to call her 'x') started, having never been to school before and she was quite a demanding child.
Well dd1 was asked to look out for her/be her special friend etc. At first this was ok but by Christmas she was having to miss more and more playtimes to spend inside with x but it was ok, i was quite proud she had been chosen and she to felt a bit honoured in a way.
Well fast forward 4 years to yr6 and x physically would not allow her to play with anyone else, she had to sit on the lower ability table because x HAD to sit by her, she missed every lunch time and had to actually eat at a separate time for break with x as she couldn't cope with the crowds.
All the time dd1 had been getting quieter and quieter but at home she was fine.
Well come her 11th birthday she carefully wrote out all her invites for about 6 girls, including x to come for a sleep over.
Well the crafty little madam gave all the other 5 girls an invite but shredded x's and put it in the bin. When her teacher asked about this she burst out in tears crying shouting how she hated x, x was mean to her and wouldn't let her have other friends, x was a baby and x couldn't play properly and why did everyone keep making her be friends with x?
Needless to say i was mortified that this happened, distraught for my daughter and x and the whole situation was rather unpleasent.
I feel that the school failed both girls because I had spoken to dd1s teacher at least half a dozen times in the term before about how i was concerned she wasn't having enough time with other girls in her class and how x was quite overpowering and could be violent and could x be almost shared out more evenly ( i know that sounds dreadful but i can't think how else to phrase it)
but not enough was done.
Well they went to different secondary schools and I haven't heard anything about x for a year or so as Dd1 is nearly 14 now but i often wonder about her.
Her confidence must have been shattered as her single friend suddenly (in her eyes) turned against her and my dd1 still feels 'bad' about her outburst now even though we keep telling her she was shouldering too much responsibilty much too young and if its anyones fault it was the teachers'

Not to worry you but I was just struck by how VERY similar the 2 situations are in some respects

Blimey, that is quite shocking Peapod. What on earth were the school thinking, keeping your DD in like that and actively encouraging her to be separate . I'm glad she had the courage to tell you but shame it went on so long.

You're right, although the natural reaction is to try and help the kids that struggle like this, and encourage our children to do the same up to a point, the bottom line is that we have to put our children's interests and happiness first.

Please don't not invite this child to the party - I'm mum to an SEN 4 year old little boy and this party stuff and not getting invited is heartbreaking. Surely the one-to-one should be helping, or does she not cover playtimes? Maybe you could ask the school if the 1-to-1 could cover some playtimes and teach the kid about sharing friends/playing with other children. It is so difficult, I do understand. My ASD stepdaughter is very high functioning, but she does not understand the nuances and complexities of friendship - for instance, she thinks that if she plays with someone one day, that makes them "her friend" (eg hers alone)and thinks they should play together every day. I wonder if this child has a little of that problem too? We have had to spell out in black and white to my Stepdaughter some of the hidden "rules" of friendship, which we all learn by instinct but which an autistic child or one with learning difficulties has to be taught artificially. Someone needs to work with this girl on social scenarios rather than just academic lessons. It is really hard for your two, and they have been so kind, but perhaps the school needs to help them as well now.

Sandy, I think the school were SOOO concerned with meeting x's need and requests that those of my daughter were overlooked.
I must say that my dd has inherited my 'smile and make everyone think i'm coping' coping method which is not particularly effective but the school should have noticed she didn't enjoy being x's special friend. It was far too much responsibility to bear at such a young age. So though I might be unpopular for saying this I think if inviting this child to your daughters' party would jeopardise their friendships with other girls then I'm not sure I would. Primarily you want your girls to be happy.
Is there a chance of dd1 and dd2 being in the same class as each other and a different one to this girl? then they might be able to cope with her a little better at playtime if she's not there all the time?

K sounds very much like my neighbour's friends at that age. She was also deaf from glue ear at an early age and lost out in her development for a while. When she and dd were both in Yr 1, my neighbour spoke to me one day about how her daughter was being cold shouldered by the other children who thought her odd. I had a chat with dd who did her best to involve her in their games. Five years on, dd and the other girl are still best friends, but in a gang involving at least 2 other girls. My neighbour's girl has come on leaps and bounds and now speaks like anybody else and is on the right level academically, though she does sometimes come across as a little eccentric and unusual. There have been ups and downs and fallings-out (as you would expect), and at times they have got on each other's nerves, but their friendship has survived some incredibly tough times (including dd's becoming disabled and the other girl's mum becoming terminally ill).

I think what saved this relationship is partly my dd's strong social position- because she was popular she was able to insist that her friend be included too, so it never became a totally exclusive relationship. Partly the fact that over the years the other girl has become easier to handle. Also the fact that dd is a very confident and mature person who is able to see that though her friend has some odd features beyond her control (such as being a poor listener), she also has other characteristics which make her a wonderful friend- her sheer exuberance and sense of fun for one thing, and her loyalty.