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If you live in a grammar school area...

42 replies

drspouse · 08/06/2022 14:42

We are professionals living in a grammar school area; our DCs are adopted and DS is 10 and just starting at a specialist school that is ages 10 through 16, and unaware that the 11+ exists, except that his one or two friends are busy with tutoring, except he doesn't know they are being tutored, just that they are busy. The GS are single sex and both DCs know we'd prefer them to go to mixed schools.
Now DD is nearing the end of Y3 and lots of parents get their children tutored starting in Y4. There is no way on this earth DD would pass the 11+ (she is just about being moved off "extra help" with English and still has it with Maths) but she is already telling me A, B and C are "going to grammar school". So far luckily this has been boys - but what do you tell your DCs if you are NOT doing the 11+ because there is no point (and you don't like the system particularly, also)?
DD already tells me that B knows more than she does and is "really clever" (I suspect B has difficulty in keeping his opinions about himself to himself, TBH!)

To make matters worse, her best female friend is likely to pass easily without tuition (she knew what mean, median and mode were in Y1) and I am expecting a slew of "ooh, it's so hard whether to tutor or not" moans from other parents in the coming months (rather like the "so, what book band is your DC on" in Reception...)

OP posts:
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TeenPlusCat · 09/06/2022 09:58

AWobABobBob · 09/06/2022 09:55

Wow, "tutoring" kids to pass the 11+ is a thing nowadays? When I was a child the 11+ decided it you were academic enough to go to a GS, surely that's the point of them instead of training your child to pass a test and then potentially struggle through secondary school?

You must be new to the education section of MN! Grin

RandomMess · 09/06/2022 10:01

@drspouse as we're such a small place the Grammar frenzy is so real here!!

Just stick with the "it's not the right school for you".

The smaller comp is better than its reputation but I agree their are better options for your DC further out.

Hoppinggreen · 09/06/2022 10:02

AWobABobBob · 09/06/2022 09:55

Wow, "tutoring" kids to pass the 11+ is a thing nowadays? When I was a child the 11+ decided it you were academic enough to go to a GS, surely that's the point of them instead of training your child to pass a test and then potentially struggle through secondary school?

It depends
I agree that pushing non academic kids to get into Grammar is a bad idea but a lot of Primary schools don’t teach or don’t show the format for things on the 11+, especially in areas that aren’t officially “grammar areas”. At very least it’s a good idea to look at some practice books to familiarise the dc with how the exam will look

Greatauntdymphna · 09/06/2022 10:04

Even as someone whose child did sit the 11+, we spent a lot of time talking about the fact that she would go to the school that was best for her. We felt that, if she passed, that would be one of the selective schools but that if she didn't (or passed for a different selective school which we felt would not be good for her) then that would be one of our comprehensive options. So I think most parents will be (hopefully) making it clear to their children that passing and grammar school is not guaranteed.
But it feels as though you are asking more about sitting/not sitting the exam and I guess there it's not about "cleverness" (we couched it as potentially creating more options - some schools base entry on exams and others don't but we never told them that they were selective - obviously they work it out but as a parent it's important to be fairly neutral I think) but about already knowing where you think the right school is for your DD and that - luckily for her - that one doesn't need an exam.
We were hugely lucky though in that - although probably 40% of the class did sit the 11+ (and maybe 10% passed) it was not a subject of significant discussion. I talked about the process with the other parents whom I knew well and whose children were also sitting it - I never mentioned it to anyone else.

drspouse · 09/06/2022 10:27

It hasn't been a thing with DS (for a start, he's been in a PRU for the last 2 1/2 years, so no other child there will have sat the 11+, and my friends with DC his age are sensitive to the fact I may not be interested in their tutor struggles); but for DD the other parents probably see us as "professional family with bright DCs" and the DCs themselves have no filter!

OP posts:
LetItGoToRuin · 09/06/2022 14:34

We have perhaps a similar setup around here (some grammar schools in neighbouring LA areas, but most children go to comprehensives). In DD’s primary, people have mostly kept their plans to themselves (parents and children). DD (now in Y6) did take the 11 plus, but I spoke to her quite candidly a number of times about being circumspect if anyone asked about her secondary school options, and also about being positive about other people’s choices. We were very careful to ‘big up’ the local comprehensives to DD (which wasn’t difficult as they are good schools), and although she really wanted to go to grammar school, we were also happy with a local comprehensive school, so if anyone asked where she would go for secondary, she could say with honesty, “either School A (comprehensive) or possibly School B (grammar).”

There was also not much talk about it amongst parents. By Y4-5 most people would have been generally aware of which children were likely candidates for grammar schools based on class performance, and I was contacted by a couple of other parents to ask whether my DD was taking the 11 plus, but to my knowledge there was no ‘us and them’ feeling amongst parents. None of the ‘grammar hopeful’ parents in DD’s class that contacted me had engaged external tutors for their children, though all did some home prep and sat a mock test or two, so it was quite low-key.

It was different for a friend and her son, who live only a few miles away but closer to grammar schools and in a more affluent area. Nearly all of the children take the 11 plus there (compared to less than 1/3 in DD’s class), and most have tutors. It all got a bit nasty with score sharing and children getting stressed. Some even took the week off school before the test, to revise!

If your DD is mature enough, I would suggest having a few chats with her about the various local schools and different reasons why some options are available to some people (such as grammars if you pass a test, local schools if you live within catchment or a certain distance, the different options if you live on road A or road B, schools with special facilities whether for SEN, sport, music etc) so that she develops an understanding of the whole setup. She will then be able to embrace your decision for her to go to the school you have chosen, with an understanding of why it’s a good choice for her. She will also be able to see why a grammar might be a good choice for her best friend, and another local comprehensive for someone else.

Similarly, if parents try to engage you in grammar/tutoring talk, it should be straightforward for you to say that you think schools X or Y will suit your DD better. To be honest, by now these parents will know that your DD is not in the top groups in class as children are aware of these things even if schools don’t set by ability. It’d be a very insensitive parent that tried to engage with you about tutoring for grammar if your child is in an intervention group.

It sounds as though there are several different secondary destinations from your DD’s primary school, and I do think this is helpful. A friend’s DS in a different area didn’t want to take the 11 plus because almost everyone else in his class would be going to the comprehensive across the road. We were lucky with DD’s class in regard, as most of the class are pretty evenly split between the three local comprehensives, with another couple going to more distant schools, and the five children that got offered a grammar school place each going to a different grammar. It really doesn’t feel that anybody is the odd one out.

Goodskin46 · 09/06/2022 14:42

Hoppinggreen · 09/06/2022 09:47

Dont be ridiculous
Why put your child through a potentially stressful process when you know they won’t get a place in a school that wouldn’t suit them in any case?

Although it absolutely sounds like OP is making the right choice for her DCs. I do think there is something worthwhile in trying the 11+ even if the chances of securing a grammar school place are low.

Interestingly DD (yr 10) is horrified that my DSis (her aunt) isn't planning on putting DN in for it (we are all Kent if it makes a difference so the comprehensives aren't really). It was horrible to hear one of the Mums in Dd's primary class at the end of year 5 say in front of her daughter that there was no point putting her in for it as she wouldn't be able to pass no matter how hard she tried !😮.

IMO every child who wants to deserves a try.

LetItGoToRuin · 09/06/2022 16:00

@Goodskin46 I do think it absolutely makes a difference if you are in one of the very few fully grammar areas such as Kent. There, I understand that approximately 20% of children go to grammar, schools are involved with preparation and administration etc.

In most other areas that have any grammar schools, the process is very different and doesn't involve the primary schools at all. Parents have to find out about it themselves and apply, tests are done at weekends at the grammar schools themselves, there are queues on the streets, strange rooms, strange kids etc. In these areas, grammar schools are very much an optional extra. In our area, perhaps 2% of children get a place at grammar.

Of course, any parent can enter their child to sit the 11 plus, and in some cultures it is the norm to enter your child regardless of their ability. However, the time pressure is intense and could demoralise a child, and is not something to be undertaken lightly.

sherbsy · 10/06/2022 09:30

LetItGoToRuin · 09/06/2022 16:00

@Goodskin46 I do think it absolutely makes a difference if you are in one of the very few fully grammar areas such as Kent. There, I understand that approximately 20% of children go to grammar, schools are involved with preparation and administration etc.

In most other areas that have any grammar schools, the process is very different and doesn't involve the primary schools at all. Parents have to find out about it themselves and apply, tests are done at weekends at the grammar schools themselves, there are queues on the streets, strange rooms, strange kids etc. In these areas, grammar schools are very much an optional extra. In our area, perhaps 2% of children get a place at grammar.

Of course, any parent can enter their child to sit the 11 plus, and in some cultures it is the norm to enter your child regardless of their ability. However, the time pressure is intense and could demoralise a child, and is not something to be undertaken lightly.

It doesn't matter. Trying is really important and learning how to deal with not winning teaches children about the importance of resilience.

It's ok to try and fail. It's not ok to walk away out of fear.

Fuckthetories · 10/06/2022 09:43

I grew up in a grammar area. Towards the end of primary, my teacher drew a map of our area on the board. He said:

"There are two roads you can take to (local city).
Road A, and Road B.

One route might be a bit quicker, but both will get you there in the end.

This is what grammar and secondary school is like."

I found it helpful, and in the long run he was right. I went to grammar, my sister to a very nurturing comp which was right for her (dyslexia). She actually did better than me academically and now earns slightly more.

Hoppinggreen · 10/06/2022 09:49

I am speaking as someone who’s DD did the 11+ and did very well but we didn’t put DS in for it (with his agreement) and I think it’s ridiculous to put a child through a process you know they won’t cope with to try and get into a school that won’t suit them. DS wouldn’t have gone to The Grammar even if he had scored first out of 600 or whatever so why get him to try?
Of course it’s ok to not do well at something and failure brings lessons but why would you get your child to work hard for something they probably can’t get and more importantly don’t want anyway?

Jackiewoo · 10/06/2022 10:49

OP I think I live in your area and have a DC at one of these schools so have NC'd. But even if not I have teens and live in a GS area so have run the gauntlet of all of this. I can PM you about various schools city and further out based on my own experiences, having friends with DC at many of the others and knowing teachers at some of them, and some schools you may not have considered if it'd help you at all.

IME the parents who feel the need to tutor from Y4 are over-tutoring asshats who are potentially setting their DC up for years of stress trying to keep up with the pace at GS and they definitely won't all get in, no matter what they or the DC say at Y3. The 11+ shouldn't require years of drilling. Also they are potentially cheating clever DC out of a place whose parents can't afford to tutor (something to keep in mind when the playground mums are bearing down on you and questioning your choices).

Teach your DC to swerve the competitive boasting and how to plough their own furrow. While other parents are rabidly tutoring, spend that time finding a good extra-curricular that your DC love and can focus on and they'll ignore the competitive academic bullshittery. School isn't the be all and end all, help them discover their passions in life.

This has turned into a bit of an essay but all I wanted to say on the thread really is to focus on finding the school that you think will be the best fit for your DCs, not making the DC fit the school. Everything else is just noise.

RandomMess · 10/06/2022 11:27

@sherbsy

That's ridiculous. Some parents and children have to accept at a young age they are unlikely to achieve any GCSES at grade 4 and above. That's not about fear that's realism.

I have had 2 through selective education and 2 not. It isn't appropriate to put all DC through a selection process just so they can try and fail. Many people can't even afford it full stop.

Yodaisawally · 10/06/2022 11:33

We are borderline to Kent and Bexley Grammar areas, lots of kids in DTs class did the 11+. We also have a super selective in the borough that DTs best friend got into. No one, as far as I know was tutored in Y4.

Mine are not grammar / ss material, we never discussed it. The school handled it brilliantly as well. In the end out of the 12 or so that did the tests, 3 got the SS, and 2 got grammar but we are out of area so if nearer it may have been more.

towelsa · 10/06/2022 12:46

I went to a grammar school, my kids have various SEN and would not pass the test but we'd decided to move to an area without a grammar school system before they were born. I did well academically at Grammar school but my mental health suffered and I Ieft with rather low self esteem despite great grades.

If I were you I'd say you have chosen the best school for them and big up the nurture. Look for why you have picked the best school - smaller, less pressure, more caring etc etc. If she asks about Grammar schools you could say they tend to be higher pressure and sometimes less fun!

Summerwhereareyou · 14/06/2022 14:12

Op I have two DC with different needs.
My first is now in a grammar as the comp didn't suit her. She's a solid accadmically able child.
The other DC and possibly the brightest one has also been in intervention groups.
I don't think I would be able to get her into the grammar.
Different children need different things and dd is far more creative, ideally her school would be more creative based and maths needs visual aids and so on.
Because of my first I was quite blind to the next one's struggles and it's an age where many DC are still learning.
I'm extremely glad I was able to ask dp about book bands because it helped me build up the picture that she was struggling!

I don't feel defensive about dd2 at all! Her brain and how it works is exciting, she thinks outside the box, my wonderful grammar dd is a great thinker but definitely within the box.

This is why we need more types of school and not less.

Dd1 did not fit the comp .
Dd2 also won't fit the comp and both for different reasons.

Summerwhereareyou · 14/06/2022 14:14

Towels my dd grammar has far more in place pastorally than her comp did.
One of the reasons I moved her was because the comp seemed cold and uncaring. Lots of issues with the students going unaddressed.

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