SATS v 11+

[monkeyblonde]

Hi, I am a parent of a child in Y5, we are busy preparing for the 11+ in September.

I know that Y6 SATS are taking place this week. I have seen many posts on here and other social media sites saying how hard these are on the students, the stress etc. I know that we are in a slightly different situation to some areas but surely they are not as demanding both in terms of outcome but also preparation as the 11+? I have zero experience of SATS so genuinely interested to know!

Living in deepest Kent, all pushy good parents focus heavily on the 11+, with the result that by the time SATS come round we really don’t care.

I am not in Kent but a similar area - and this is how I am feeling too!

11+ are obviously higher stakes as that impacts where the child goes.
Otoh generally only brighter children do 11+ (and it is also generally optional) whereas sats are compulsory.
Teachers and parents can choose how much to stress to children in either case.

My daughter is in Year 6. In September and January, she sat the 11+ for super selective grammars and independent schools, and is now sitting the SATS. In a direct comparison, no, the SATS are nowhere near the other papers she took in terms of difficulty and preparation etc. But you can’t compare directly as they’re not designed to test the same things. My understanding is that SATS are there to check how the children are working in relation to the expected standard, and to check progress through Ks2, not to identify the top x% of children as the grammars etc do. But remember that for many children the SATS will be the first time that they have taken formal tests in a formal environment so for them it may well be a stressful experience.

We are Bucks so 11+ opt out rather then opt in. Tbh primary schools care deeply about SATS parents / children who have qualified don’t care.

Do SATS impact what stream you are out in at secondary school? I'm sure I've heard that before. Is that still the case if it's a grammar school you go to?

Where we are no makes no difference at grammar- not streamed except for maths from yr 8.

for Upper schools yes does make a difference and whether you get into the grammar stream.

All schools run CAT tests at start of year 7.

It’s the compulsory bit that makes the difference. You wouldn’t put a child who can’t swim yet into a gala or ask a child with no musical training to perform a solo.
The children who will struggle with SATS aren’t stupid. They know they’re going to struggle. They’re expecting it to be hard so sometimes they write themselves off before they’ve even started. Even when they are actually capable of the answers, they can’t always reproduce it under test conditions, because half of their brain is occupied with telling themselves they aren’t clever enough.

Not a teacher but I think the schools take the SATs super seriously as they directly impact some of how much funding the school receives.

Our school had a particularly bad set of SAT results in 2019 - they were expecting it as they had a very high percentage of kids with SEN / ECHPs so just not a cohort that tested well academically- and I know they have been financially worse off due to that, especially as there were no SATs in 2020 or 2021 so there seems to be a fair amount of stress from the SLT to improve the results for this year, although they are trying not to transmit this to the kids.

In terms of the kids it really doesn't have much bearing. Some secondary schools use it for handing but others do their own banding tests at the beginning of year 7.

MavisMonkey ... that is so backwards, you'd think it would be the schools with poorer results that would get more funding? surely? to help improve results?

My DD did 11+ in September 2018 and SATs in May 2019. She breezed the SATs and wasn't stressed at all and school were grateful for 11+ tutoring as it impacted well on their achievement (making a mockery out of SATs effectiveness really but that's another thread!)

IME the stressed kids are the ones that parents made a big deal out of SATs being soooo stressful. We just treated them like any other day at school with a couple of tests thrown in. DD's school didn't use SATs for setting- they did a series of baseline assessments at the start of Y7 and again at start of Y8

My DDs class hasn't done any subjects but Maths and English all term. Shes dyslexic. She can get Working Towards some days and Greater Depth on others. The pressure is to do well so you can be in classes with her higher achieving friends at Secondary. (Weve told her just to do her best and we are proud of her dedication)

I'm glad we aren't in an 11+ area. We deliberately moved out of one as we didn't want the pressure on her.

In a direct comparison, no, the SATS are nowhere near the other papers she took in terms of difficulty and preparation etc.

Since one of the texts that appeared in the reading SAT today is rumoured to be a past 11+ paper, I strongly suspect that is untrue.

Not a teacher but I think the schools take the SATs super seriously as they directly impact some of how much funding the school receives

@MavisMonkey Who told you that?! It’s utter garbage. Funding is based on how many children are in the school, and how many pupil premium children there are. It has bugger all to do with SAT results. I suppose lower results in the long run may lead to less bums on seats eventually and affect funding that way, but it is absolutely not what you describe.

The 11+ (see example papers here) is (to be blunt) an IQ test for kids used to separate the wheat from the chaff in selective schools. It's usually a blend of maths, verbal/non-verbal reasoning and comprehension. Despite what they say, children can be prepared for it. Some may disagree but getting into a grammar school can be considered a free private education but it certainly doesn't suit every child.

The SATs (see example papers here) essentially test kids on what they've already learned in school. It's used to help form school league tables and has little to no impact on their future learning. Some people get very het up about them but it's no big deal.

My son is currently doing SATs and having a great weak. He can answer the questions and enjoys doing so, gets lots of extra breaks and extra fun things built into the week and has a breakfast provided by the school each morning so is really happy to be going in with his friends to eat bacon sandwiches! We didn't do the 11+ but my friend did. She said the whole experience was absolutely horrendous (he passed and is now in a grammar school) and worse than the breast cancer treatment she had! For the children who have sat the 11+ the SATs should be a breeze as they will have been tutored beyond it. For bright children who didn't do the 11+ or did it without tutoring, the SATs will not be overly challenging. There are however a lot of children who struggle with school and testing and for them there can be issued.

Yes - you won't often hear this but kids do generally enjoy a test! As do adults - hence the pub quiz etc.

The last time my German relatives came to the UK I took them to a pub quiz. They were completely mystified by the whole experience! One even said "why do you go to a pub to have an exam?!" 😂

Thats great for the kids having fun
It isn't universal. I'm dealing with nightmares and stress... I took the laptop and books away on Friday.

She was greatly relieved yesterday when it turned out her addition access arrangements were extra time and a scribe.

Its Maths today. Less stressful. But she frequently writes 2s and 5s backwards there is the possibility of getting the right answer but writing it wrong... she does Maths by computer normally. (Her maths ability is high)

Thats the problem... the system is set up for the academic kids whose brains work in a certain way.

Not a grammar area, but have a Y6.
He's not phased by the sats. But he's reasonably academic, and will almost certainly get expected, and stands a reasonable chance of getting greater depth/working above/whatever its called.

For those who are struggling, it's a long week with lots of focused time needed. I can see it being very difficult for a number of children in every school.

I guess, if you are 11+ material, SATs are unlikely to be an issue.

You are trying to compare apples and pears I think.

I will caveat it with DD never did sit SATS (current Year 8 at a grammar school) for the obvious pandemic based reasons but they are different processes.

'Wheat from the Chaff', wow- highly offensive way to describe children.

DD was I think the first year of the new SATs.

She found the week OK despite being academically low average (ended up with scores <100). But this was due to how the school and we as parents managed the run up. It is very clear that many schools (and parents) put their own stress onto the children. School provided special breakfasts too which went down well.

I also think doing SATs is to some extent a 'rite of passage' which helps move y6 on mentally from primary to secondary. Plus it then means that GCSEs aren't the first 'external' tests they have ever done.

Most of the problem with SATs is the build up in the month preceding them, when some schools go OTT in prep/cramming rather than trusting that their teaching for the previous 6 years will have been sufficient.

And don't get me started on the 'G' bit of SPaG that is then not needed or built on in secondary.

I don't think the two sets of tests are designed to test the same things and in the same way.

My ds is doing y6 Sats now. It is the compulsory element that is tough, plus the fact that they put unnecessary pressure on schools which may to a greater/lesser degree filter down to the kids, depending on the school.

The 11+ in our area (not a grammar area but a few super-selectives) is mainly taken by children who are firmly greater depth anyway. IME, those children don't tend to be worried by the SATs, but have been very bored by the practise in the run-up.

The 11+ here is supposedly based on KS2 curriculum (there is no VR/NVR), but does seem to go beyond it (practice materials anyway), so some questions in the 11+ are similar to the hardest ones on the SATs.

I think 11+ is worse for those who do both, partly because parents are probably less convincing when telling their child the outcome doesn't matter (even if it it really doesn't). But if academics don't come easily at this age, I can imagine the SATs are not very nice. DD's school are making this week really nice (other than the tests!), and they go straight on a residential trip next week, but the run-up has been a lot of practice tests and sharing scores.

I grew up in Bucks so did the 11+. My dc have done SATs (dc3 is doing them now).

Personally I found that the worst thing about the 11+ was the year 6 teacher constantly sighing, shaking her head and telling the class as a whole that we would never be ready for grammar school. It was seen as a very big deal and I wish someone had explained to us at the time that most people aren't going to get into the grammar schools and our lives won't be over if we don't.

With SATs I've made sure that I tell my dc that the government are testing the school. That they should do their best as they should with everything but not to worry. DS3 isn't keen, he would rather be doing anything else and he's not impressed at losing a PE lesson this week. DS1 keeps reminding him that he will get to do lots of fun things on Friday when they are finished and then there is the school concert, transition stuff, leavers assembly etc to look forward to.

My son and daughter have done both (including my year 6 this year). The 11 plus is much much harder, not least because it is all on one day. I haven't made my son do any extra work since the January exams., in my experience the really bright kids will get near perfect 120 scores across the board. If your child passes the 11 plus in a competitive area / selective indi in my experience they are looking at scores of at least 113 more like 118 in a competitive year. So there is scope for differentiation between the very brightest in the SAT but not much. Much more room to differentiate between the brightest in the 11 plus.