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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Maths websites/subscriptions for very able Year 1?

44 replies

IlFaitBeau · 06/04/2022 08:16

Wondering if parents of KS1 children have any suggestions of maths subscriptions to choose which aren’t super pricey and which will help challenge a Year 1 child exceeding expectations in maths and genuinely loving numbers? DS loves maths and enjoys setting us all Number challenges and would greatly enjoy something regular/daily that challenges him a bit.

I’ve looked on MN and it appears that -

  1. people rate Carol Vorderman’s Maths Factor but some find it repetitive
  2. Komodo Maths appears to have some likers
  3. Maths Whizz too
  4. Ixl as well

Since we can only do 1, just wondered what might help? Also we aren’t looking for extra support/there aren’t particular areas where he is struggling - it’s more about stretching him a bit in ways which he will enjoy. He enjoys multiplication, division, balancing number sentences using the 2, 5 and 10 times tables for example.

Thanks for any help :)

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extrastrongmints · 10/04/2022 10:58

[quote pitterpatterrain]@extrastrongmints can I ask a question - what are you suggesting they are accelerated towards? Ie are you thinking they do gcse / a-levels early? Enter a degree early (although oxbridge ime ask accelerated candidates to delay before attending)

Mainly my question with acceleration is “to what” as I agree - if they are finding it easy no amount of acceleration is going to make it less dull until you get to degree level and even then it will probably be “more stuff” vs that challenging[/quote]
Successive international comparisons (PISA, TIMMS) have shown that by mid-teens, the UK student cohort are working about two years behind leading regions like Singapore and Shanghai, with very few high attainers in UK comprehensive schools. The government has stated an ambition to catch up, yet continues to hold our own brightest students back. The obvious question is then why we don't allow those who are capable of doing so to work at a significantly higher level.

"if they are finding it easy no amount of acceleration is going to make it less dull"

This is not true. It stems from a fallacy prevalent in UK teaching circles is that allowing perhaps one year's acceleration is meaningful and sufficient, whereas the degree of acceleration should be based on the prior attainment of the learner.

"what are you suggesting they are accelerated towards?"
Interestingly, nobody asks the same question in e.g. music or sports. If a student shows natural talent in those areas, then their teachers/mentors allow them to progress at their natural rate. In those areas, excellence is seen as an end in itself. If you heard a music teacher say "I'd better not give this kid any grade 6 pieces until they're 16, or they'll have done their grade 8 before they're 18 and then they'll be bored on their music degree." you'd probably think they're a certifiable loon, but when a maths teacher holds similar views, nobody bats an eyelid.

"are you thinking they do gcse / a-levels early?"
We should distinguish between providing advanced content and instruction, versus taking high stakes external exams, but some students would be well served by doing so. Some parents have found that a high grade at GCSE taken several years early meant that the school could no longer pretend the child was not exceptionally able (though that should not have been necessary).

"although oxbridge ime ask accelerated candidates to delay before attending"
they might "ask" but they are skating on thin ice legally, because age is a protected characteristic under the 2010 equality act, and while schools were given an exemption, universities were not, so university admissions must be legally age-blind. It's not the case that any university can require students to delay until 18, except for medicine and related courses, where the GMC imposes a requirement that students must have turned 18 before the end of their first term of study.
Thousands of students each year begin attendance at university in the UK before the age of 18 and Cambridge admits about 70 under 18's each year, so they do not ask students to delay in all cases. But most are from overseas, and are seen as "overseas students" rather than "accelerated students", because UK schools hold our brightest students back.

pitterpatterrain · 10/04/2022 12:57

Thanks extrastrongmints - fair points

It appears to be a cultural challenge at the end of the day

Music and sports are both socially acceptable and feasible exceptions in that you can accelerate by stepping outside of the educational system we have today

JunhaLamra · 10/04/2022 13:18

Ds2 is at the upper end of this. In primary he excelled at maths, in year 4 they were doing some year 8 work to push their knowledge as "challenge" work, then they put on the brakes and were told they could now only extend them sideways and in mastery rather than higher level content.

He is now year 11, has spent the last 2 years getting 95% on GCSE maths papers despite the impact of lockdown learning. He is bored senseless. After every mock the students are meant to have targeted work for improvement, Ds's isn't an ability issue it is a silly mistake in calculation or missing a minus sign when he writes an answer. Therefore there is nothing to work on. There is no sixth form attached to the school, they want to keep it GCSE content only which I understand and I have spoken to the head of maths.

Imagine if he took his maths GCSE in year 10, what then for year 11? The school doesn't teach further maths so what is he meant to do for 4 lessons a week for year 11? This is the material point. To what end? is a good question for most state schools.

extrastrongmints · 10/04/2022 17:57

"bored senseless" describes the experience of most of the top percent of mathematical ability, particularly in non-selective schools.
State secondaries receive £6000 per pupil per year. If they don't have the expertise/resources themselves to teach beyond GCSE, then they need to buy it in. A subscription to conquermaths which covers roughly two thirds of the single A level spec is £120. A subscription to integral which covers all of single and further maths A level is £86 for single A level or £137 for double A level. i.e. about 2% of the funding the school receives for that pupil.
Allowing a pupil to stagnate for years when there are straightforward and affordable ways to meet their needs is professional negligence.

Ululavit · 12/04/2022 08:58

Oh, I agree that’s what should happen, but it’s very hard to change the system as a parent @extrastrongmints We had a good year where the teacher had a maths degree and did tons of interesting and challenging stuff, but then they left and the next teacher didn’t have all that up their sleeve and was constrained by the HT to keep strictly to the National Curriculum. Only solution for us has been a selective independent school for secondary, where they have highly qualified teachers and are free to accelerate as much as they like, my Y8 (middle set) has been doing some A level work in maths.

Incapacitated · 12/04/2022 09:04

Doodle Maths will reinforce what he already knows and you'll be able to whizz ahead a bit and see what's coming up next on the syllabus.

White Rose Maths have PPPTs that encourage mastery by asking tricky questions and really probing what might not be understood yet. Pearsons have a set to accompany their booklets called Power Maths which have cheap practice books and provide lots and lots of practice. But that's paper based apart from the videos and PPPTS.

Tables Fables is really good for learning times tables.

Incapacitated · 12/04/2022 09:07

if they are finding it easy no amount of acceleration is going to make it less dull

That's not the case. It just isn't true. The more you know the more you can do with it and master.

RachelSq · 12/04/2022 11:04

I was definitely one of those high achieving maths kids. In KS2 SATS I got a level 6 (expected for year group was 4), in KS3 SATS I got an 8 (expected for year group was 5/6). A at GCSE and A in Maths and Further Maths A Levels (prior to A being a thing). I think I can honestly say that I don’t think I was taught anything up until the point of trigonometry - everything up to then just made inherent sense.

Maths lessons weren’t exactly thrilling, but I had a great grasp of everything that was covered.

My opinion is that you shouldn’t extend unless it happens naturally. If he wants to read maths book that’s great, especially the puzzle types. It’s the critical thinking that’s important if he’s actually got aptitude. You need to be covering all subjects at a similar level really - what’s the point in passing a maths A Level at age 14 but needing to pass other A Levels to get into uni (and then forgetting your ability at maths in the mean time).

Challenge, but sideways extension and lateral thinking just seem a better use of time to me unless he’s interested enough to read up on it himself rather than having it spoon fed by software.

Incapacitated · 12/04/2022 11:40

spoon fed by software.

That's not what software does in my experience. I wouldn't say it spoon fed. A lot of it is more play and experimentation.

RachelSq · 12/04/2022 13:30

@Incapacitated

spoon fed by software.

That's not what software does in my experience. I wouldn't say it spoon fed. A lot of it is more play and experimentation.

Everything I’ve seen is purely based around getting the right answer to a straightforward question (of varying technical levels) rather than encouraging a wide range of understanding in a topic. The questions typically seem to be worded the same way every time, with just figures changing each time giving a superficial understanding of a topic. Maybe there is something better out there that doesn’t just teach how to answer the questions?

Much better to foster a naturally inquisitive mind naturally rather than just follow a set progression with an ultimate aim of ticking boxes.

puffyisgood · 12/04/2022 13:53

I'm not crazy about the idea of doing extra maths with a 5-6 year old.

How about something that's more obviously fun, like playing chess or doing some coding?

Incapacitated · 12/04/2022 13:55

I don't know what you've seen, Rachel. I'm thinking you probably haven't seen much if that's your view. I suppose you'd have no incentive to look.

Incapacitated · 12/04/2022 13:57

How about something that's more obviously fun

What a depressing thread. You should all try home educating through autonomous learning and discover that most children find learning instrinsically interesting and enjoyable.

RachelSq · 12/04/2022 14:32

@Incapacitated

I don't know what you've seen, Rachel. I'm thinking you probably haven't seen much if that's your view. I suppose you'd have no incentive to look.
You mentioned Doodle Maths - that’s the type of thing I believe is totally pointless and unimaginative for someone already doing well. It’s simply progressing linearly through a syllabus with similar questions again and again and doesn’t stretch understanding or provide interesting challenge. I’m not saying they don’t have a use, but they’re not really inspiring unless the sole aim is to progress through content.

If I had to suggest anything to play on a computer, I’d suggest actual games like Zoombinis. Fun, but using logic too.

I also agree with the person suggesting chess and coding - both can be very practical applications of maths. Card games for statistics etc. Musical instruments too.

Ilfaitbeau · 12/04/2022 15:14

Thanks all - really useful thoughts. Yes DS loves chess and taught himself/us. And also he loves coding - he began with beebots and that Botley floor robot thing with the flash cards to code paths but now goes to a Saturday code dojo club thing and I must say we love what he creates on Scratch Junior and Minecraft Education Edition. He is beginning to code really funny sequences on Scratch with the characters throwing in a punchline of a joke recorded in DS voice right at the end and he’s properly made us laugh with the latest one. It’s also cool because it’s sort of connected to other stuff he does - so he wrote a story last week about an explorer who crushes an atom to make some elephants go green (!) and the ending of his story has the explorer saying “what a mess but What an adventure!” And the thingy he made on scratch this gone Saturday had the same things in and that exact sentence at the end which was so cool.

But I digress- on the matter of maths we’ll have a think about all this when we find some time and all the thoughts v valuable

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extrastrongmints · 12/04/2022 15:33

"spoon fed" is a loaded, pejorative term. There is no basis for assuming the kids who progress via computer instruction are any more or less spoon fed than those who progress under the instruction of an adult. Furthermore, it is better to be "spoon fed" (i.e. taught) by software than starved of any appropriate provision at all, i.e not taught and left to stagnate.
Use of computer instruction for mathematics, particularly for gifted students, has a long history and research support going back to EPGY in the 1980s.

Chess, coding and musical instruments are all fine and dandy - bright kids, and perhaps all kids, should do them. But they should do them as well as, not instead of, appropriate instruction in mathematics. And these do not address the two problems:

  1. what teachers should do in school with a kid who is years ahead of their peers during their timetabled mathematics classes
  2. what parents can do outside school if teachers fail to do anything in school For both those issues, computer instruction is a viable approach, though not the only one.
puffyisgood · 12/04/2022 16:18

@Ilfaitbeau

Thanks all - really useful thoughts. Yes DS loves chess and taught himself/us. And also he loves coding - he began with beebots and that Botley floor robot thing with the flash cards to code paths but now goes to a Saturday code dojo club thing and I must say we love what he creates on Scratch Junior and Minecraft Education Edition. He is beginning to code really funny sequences on Scratch with the characters throwing in a punchline of a joke recorded in DS voice right at the end and he’s properly made us laugh with the latest one. It’s also cool because it’s sort of connected to other stuff he does - so he wrote a story last week about an explorer who crushes an atom to make some elephants go green (!) and the ending of his story has the explorer saying “what a mess but What an adventure!” And the thingy he made on scratch this gone Saturday had the same things in and that exact sentence at the end which was so cool.

But I digress- on the matter of maths we’ll have a think about all this when we find some time and all the thoughts v valuable

Your 5/6 year old taught you to play chess? I assume did it proactively, e.g. took it upon himself to put something in both of your Outlook calendars? With respect, that's the stuff of extreme parody. Better not to say it even if true.
Ilfaitbeau · 12/04/2022 16:22

Not sure I get the Outlook calendar thing - but there are a couple of children in his class who play chess - so they have the board and pieces at their After School club where they play with the after school club teachers/carers. Neither my spouse or I know Chess (!) - so DS has been teaching us what the various pieces can/cannot do and an app they have on the Ipad at after school club with fairly rudimentary games. that's all really - his knowledge of chess is fairly limited to whatever happens on those two days at after school club.

Hope that explains - but not sure the outlook calendar comment - and what that meant...

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IlFaitbeau · 12/04/2022 16:30

@extrastrongmints

"spoon fed" is a loaded, pejorative term. There is no basis for assuming the kids who progress via computer instruction are any more or less spoon fed than those who progress under the instruction of an adult. Furthermore, it is better to be "spoon fed" (i.e. taught) by software than starved of any appropriate provision at all, i.e not taught and left to stagnate. Use of computer instruction for mathematics, particularly for gifted students, has a long history and research support going back to EPGY in the 1980s.

Chess, coding and musical instruments are all fine and dandy - bright kids, and perhaps all kids, should do them. But they should do them as well as, not instead of, appropriate instruction in mathematics. And these do not address the two problems:

  1. what teachers should do in school with a kid who is years ahead of their peers during their timetabled mathematics classes
  2. what parents can do outside school if teachers fail to do anything in school For both those issues, computer instruction is a viable approach, though not the only one.
Good point - agreeing there. With professional hat on - my research revolves around tech use and families/parenting and the evidence is so nanced/mixed - obviously tabloids often present fairly polarised stories around digital and tech (i.e. either its a saviour! or its a total brain-rotter!) - when the evidence is fairly mixed, and in between and its all about balancing risks and opportunities, and working out what's best for each kid/family unit. There's also so much muddling through involved in all parenting decisions, and so much trying bits and bobs of this and that to see what suits.

Anyway - more to the point of this thread - I've failed to look into any of the resources/sites suggested yet but will do over Easter at some point. We've been slightly occupied with juggling DS partly at home/partly at cricket camps partly working/partly annual leave - usual story in many homes I suspect!

Thanks again all for such useful inputs (and debates!) - this thread has definitely given me lots of food for thought.

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