Rewards and punishments

[Twounderfive83]

My DS is 5, in year 1.

He doesn’t tell me much about school, we had a recent parents’ evening where I was told he is very capable, reading doing well, and things to work on were not shouting out/waiting his turn to speak. His teacher told me he and his two best friends (one whom is, I hate to say it, the “naughty” boy in the class) have to be separated in the class as otherwise they get too overexcited. She also said that DS almost “heckles” her sometimes (she didn’t use that word, but I can’t for the life of me recall how she said it).

I was relatively happy with how this parents’ evening went as there weren’t any surprises - since he’s been in Y1 I’ve never been spoken to about his behaviour, and I wasn’t in reception either, but in the summer parents’ evening in YR I was told he’d started shouting out/silly noises during quiet time. This came as a surprise to me at the time as I had never been told about it.

This week I found out from DS that there is a reward system in place in class, a cloud, a tree, a sun and a rainbow. Everyone starts on the tree, and if you’re naughty you get moved to the cloud for the rest of the day. If you’re good, the sun, and if you’re “star of the week” you go to the rainbow. At the time DS told me he’s NEVER been on the cloud, but that his “naughty” friend goes on there all the time. This made me really sad for his friend at the time, who isnt a bad child at all, but he is very emotional/over the top and so I can imagine for a teacher with 30 other children, he can be disruptive.

Today DS confessed that actually he has been on the cloud, 4 times according to him. I asked why, and he said for whistling while the teacher is talking I asked him to show me how he whistles; it’s basically just calling out loudly. So disruptive behaviour essentially. He said he has also been on the sun too, a few times, but that only he and his “naughty” friend have been on the cloud.

As mentioned I’ve never been spoken to about his behaviour by the teacher other than the parents’ evening. My DH thinks I’m mad to be worried about this, but I hate the thought of only my DS and his friend going on the cloud, as it singles them out as the “naughty” ones. I thought about trying to ask his teacher for more information about this system, and how we can support school with DS’ behaviour (eg if he has been on the cloud I would like to know so he doesn’t get screen time that day, similarly if he is on the sun I can praise and reward him) but to be honest it’s almost impossible to speak to the teacher privately unless I call the office and ask to pass a message on to call me back.

WWYD? DH thinks I’m massively overreacting and if his behaviour was a big problem, we’d be spoken to after school.

I can't see any harm at all it would do to have more communication from the teacher. I can only see that it would help. You will get a better idea of what's going on as children can misinterpret things or forget so the teacher can fill in the blanks on what's really going on.

The teacher can give you pointers so that you're both encouraging the same things.

It's not over reacting to have a chat with the reached...it would be over reacting if you intended on punishing your child again at home for what he's done at school. But I don't think that's what you are intending to do at all.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Teacher* not reached

Thank you for your reply.

No, I don’t think I would punish, although to be honest I am tempted to withhold YouTube if he has been on the cloud (currently on school days he asks to watch 10 mins of YouTube kids when he gets home, and if there was no fuss on the way to and from school, he always gets it) as it’s a reward of sorts.

It sounds like he's disrupting the lesson by interrupting the teacher. He needs to understand the consequence of that. I would focus on sorting out his behaviour rather than querying the use of the cloud.

School is rewarding and giving consequences there
You don't need to follow up for same transgression at home.
Save home consequences for home based transgression.

How do you know no other child is on cloud?
Relax

Talk to your child about not making silly noises at quiet time

My DS has a similar system in reception. All kids start on the earth at the beginning of the week and can move up for good behaviour and down for bad. On a Friday they then get golden hour where they get to play in the playground/ do inside games etc. Where each child ends up in the chart at the end of the week determines how much of the golden hour time they have earned. So the reward/punishment is done by the school for behaviour that has occurred at school. I have bought him a small toy (blind bag that he wanted) this half term as he has earned all his golden time every week. I have absolutely no intention of instating a punishment if he didn't earn his golden time as the school have already done that.

I would find out from the teacher what the consequences of being on the cloud are as you may find there is nothing further you need to do.

Thanks for your post. During the parents’ evening when she said not interrupting/waiting his turn to speak is something to work on, I asked how can we support the school in helping him with this, other than the usual reminding him not to interrupt when he does. The teacher said that’s all we need to do - just keep reminding, so I’m not sure what more I can do with that.

I asked him why he did the “whistling”, he said that he doesn’t want to but his brain tells him to. To me, that’s his 5 year old way of trying to explain an impulse he can’t control. There’s not much I can do to control my child when he’s at school, and also not much I can do if I’m not told about things as and when they happen. At home if he interrupts, we tell him he must wait until we have finished talking.

Do you know if the children who are put on the cloud are given a chance to finish the day not on the cloud?
I think it is very depressing and stigmatising if they leave the school at the end of the day being on the cloud.

Apologies my last post about how we have tried to support school with the interrupting was directed at @converseandjeans.

@Iamsodone from what DS tells me, you finish the day on the cloud. Everyone starts on the tree at the start of the day, then if you move to the cloud, you’re there for the rest of the day.

As a teacher l would say don't worry about it. If there was an issue the teacher would soon tell you. Teachers are well used to dealing with issues that arise in class . It's like you as a parent who may have to correct your boy on a day out. Little things for his safety etc. By evening you will have forgotten those incidences and life goes on. It's the same in school. The cloud thing is just one of many things the teacher does to keep 30 children in line as she goes through her day. She won't even remember later. Believe me ..if he was causing constant disruption you would know all about it. Its not easy for a 5 year old to sit still all day...as adults we would find it difficult. In lreland he would only be starting school. Unless teacher calls you to complain just go on with your life and don't be asking ds if he was on the cloud today. Just enjoy your time with him.

Thanks @junebirthdaygirl this is very much my DH’s view, that she would pull us aside or arrange a proper meeting if it was a big issue, but he is definitely more hands off when it comes to school issues (I overthink massively so I don’t think either of us are correct, just very different).

I was a bit annoyed to be honest, when his YR teacher mentioned this type of disruption at his summer parents’ evening, as I had assumed he was well behaved as I have never once been spoken to about his behaviour day to day. So it came out of the blue, and I was of the understanding that there shouldn’t be any surprises at parents’ evening.

When his Y1 teacher mentioned it at the most recent parents’ evening, it was framed more in the fact that she has to keep him and his two best friends separate in class, and that something for him to work on is the not calling out/interrupting. At least it wasn’t a surprise this time.

Posted too soon - DH’s response to my annoyance when it was mentioned out of the blue at parents’ evening was more along what you think @junebirthdaygirl; that it’s probably not a big thing, just something that happens sometimes and she has to mention. I arranged to speak to the YR teacher on the phone towards the end of the summer term to see if it had improved, and it hadn’t. I asked if it was very disruptive, and she essentially said not really. I didn’t get much out of the conversation, but again DH’s view was that this was because there wasn’t all that much to say!

Children often find the naughty child fun to associate with. At 5 they are not discerning! However it’s always annoying for the teacher when silly behaviour escalates. I think it has and this is why it was not an issue last year. I would also ask yourself how should the teacher deal with it? It’s clearly irritating and in y1 I’m not surprised the teacher is now dealing with it. I doubt the other children think your DS and his noises are great. He will be getting a reputation.

You don’t seem to have read the behaviour policy. These always detail how a school will encourage good behaviour but will also include sanctions. Sometimes it’s traffic lights instead of clouds for example. I suggest you look at the schools web site and find the behaviour policy. It’s a statutory policy. Then read it.

Few schools want parents wandering in to see teachers these days. So make an appointment. Yes the teacher might mention behaviour to you but she’s dealing with it according to their policy I would think. But why not make an appointment? You can then work with the teacher about him understanding why he’s disruptive and do something about it. It might make you sad for him to be on the cloud but if his behaviour continues it isn’t working so what next? Separate table away from others? Visits to the head? In y1 he is old enough to understand the consequences of being disruptive in class. Save the noises for the playground.

In the uk he’s in school. It doesn’t mean children who start later in other countries behave like this. They learn how to behave in nursery. Can you imagine a whole class being like this? Obviously other children are not doing this. Don’t forget other children will want to learn and your child might find making “nice” friends difficult. Maybe that’s why the naughtily one appeals? Do speak to the teacher. There’s a place for being the class clown but it’s in the playground.

Why You Tube? What does he watch? Do you control it? What running about and play does he do?

Just read your update. So separate tables already. Do make an appointment and accept hrs a bit of a nuisance. YR is more forgiving. From now on it’s KS1 curriculum.

I don’t see anywhere in my OP where I’ve said I don’t think the cloud should be used?

My concern is that he’s being labelled as naughty if it really is just him and this one other child who go on the cloud, and that’s for all the reasons you mention @TizerorFizz.

We’re not in England so it’s not KS1, it’s foundation phase until Y3.

What running about and playing does he do? He walks/bikes/scoots to school and back every day, it’s a mile each way. He does swimming lessons, gymnastics club and was doing a football club in the summer. On the weekend he is either at a swimming lesson in the morning or we are out the door by 10am on the bike/scooter/walking to get fresh air and exercise. I have two boys so I know full well how much exercise they need. He’s fitter than his friends who when they have come to play, struggle with scooting the distance to school/the park.

He watches 10 minutes of YouTube kids after school as a reward for being good on the school runs. He watches toys on it, Transformers or Paw
Patrol. Yes I know what he watches, and as I said it’s for 10 minutes. He wouldn’t die in a ditch if I stopped him watching it but I see it doing zero harm currently and is a useful privilege to remove if he moans/makes a fuss on the way home from school.

In that case, in that you are not in the uk, I’m assuming it’s not a requirement that a school publishes a behaviour policy. Do ask for it though.
MI did think you didn’t like the cloud because it labelled your DS. However I don’t think I’ve seen a behaviour policy that does not have a system of movement from green to red, etc. So any child that’s at the red stage is known about and of course the other children know he’s the naughty one. If he does what you say it’s inevitable. But the situation can be improved with the teacher and you working together.

I only wondered about exercise because this is such an outlet of energy for lively children and can help with behaviour. He will probably mature in time, but there are downsides to his behaviour in the meantime, and he’s not too young to understand good manners and respecting his teacher so I’m sure you can work on that. It will be good for him as he moves up the school and avoids the cloud!

Yes in the UK @TizerorFizz just not in England.

I’ve checked the school policies and there’s nothing about any specific system so I interpret from that that each teacher devises their own. The policy states a verbal warning is the first instance, but DS told me that the teacher didn’t say anything, she put him straight on the cloud. Obviously this may not be 100% true, but also I do listen to my child.

To be clear I don’t expect no behaviour policy at all, and in theory the cloud/sun etc system if it works on a specific behaviour sounds like it could be effective for a teacher trying to manage 30 children. But if it’s only one or two children who are EVER on the cloud, then I think it shows that it isn’t working for those children and it’s very shaming. If a child does something at 9:30am to place them on the cloud, they are on it all day.

I instil good manners and behaviour at home, but I really struggle with the idea of him misbehaving in school as I’m not there to address it, and worse if I’m not even told by anyone other than my very young DS.

My concern is that he’s being labelled as naughty if it really is just him and this one other child who go on the cloud, and that’s for all the reasons you mention

You keep using the word ‘naughty’. It’s not something you really hear in schools anymore, the teacher won’t be calling them that so it’s you doing the labelling 🤷‍♀️ You’re also taking your son’s word for it that it is only him and his friend on the cloud - that’s highly unlikely. He will notice himself on there and he will notice his good friend because they have a close relationship - or because from the sound of it they may misbehaving and ending up on the cloud at the same time. Other children going on the cloud won’t register.
No harm speaking to the teacher again - if you want to work together with them to address the behaviour I’m sure it will be appreciated. If you just want to keep tabs on when he’s been ‘shamed’ and be ‘that parent’ about it then not so much.

I’m not sure if it’s only England that requires a school behaviour policy. I suggest you look at the DfE or your equivalent to find out. It’s not acceptable for there not to be a whole school policy in my view and it should be communicated to parents and be easy to understand. It’s not acceptable for teachers to make up their own.

You are never going to be in school to address his behaviour so you really have to park that notion. The school deals with his behaviour in school, not you.

Every behaviour policy has a system where DC earn back their status. So move off the cloud, go to amber etc. if he didn’t misbehave he would stay sunny would he not? So there is the incentive. You could say none of it works if he’s separated from his friend and is on the cloud but doesn’t improve. You should speak to the teacher but you cannot address his behaviour in school. You can work with them though to help him.

To clarify I’m mortified at the thought of him being disruptive, always have been! I come from an all-girls-eager-to-please family and was very well behaved and quiet all through primary school. I don’t want to challenge them reprimanding him, but he WILL be labelled by children and other parents when their child talks about him. I would like to know when he is being reprimanded to that extent if it really is only him (and one other) as to me, that shows a serious issue. And it’s a shame I’m not being told about it there and then.

You may well be on to something there though @Rosesareyellow, it could be that out of his small group of close friends, only he and the other have been on the cloud, and other children outside of that group go on but it doesn’t register. If I am told that by the teacher then I don’t see an issue in using the system. Originally DS told me it was ONLY his friend who has ever been on the cloud and it’s all the time, and that really unsettled me as no one child should continue to be singled out that way without it being addressed differently.

Unless the school has a behaviour policy you simply won’t know what “addressing differently” will look like. It should never be an ad hoc policy. In school all the pupils know who the naughty/cheeky/violent/talkative ones are! You are reading too much into the punishment as singling him out. I’m afraid what he is doing is what singles him out. Therefore you and the school need to work together to stop it. You seem to be clutching at straws rather than accepting there has to be a policy. I’m not sure I like the cloud system but would you prefer him to be sent to the head? Or asked to work on his own? Often punishment does involve a degree of deterrent which sees the misbehaving child punished in an obvious way. See if the school has a Discipline policy which might also inform you.

It won’t be the cloud that is labelling him- it will be the behaviour. I hear the full run down from my 5yo and know exactly who the more challenging children are. If he’s messing about, the children will know rain cloud or not.

Yes @Bunnycat101 my child also tells me a lot of tales of naughty children in his class/other classes! Few 5 year olds would incriminate themselves.

Ime teachers who use sun/cloud type charts allow the child to improve during the day, so the child can get back up the chart for 'good' behaviour of some sort. Worth asking how it works if it bothers you. And agree with pp that children only really notice their friends and not others on these charts

@Twounderfive83
Well if there are a lot of naughty children he won’t be singled out will he? So you don’t have the problem you think you have.