Please help. Year 2 boy.

[ilkleymoorbartat]

I've just had parents evening, they told me my son was very very bright. Had big ideas and is articulate and is advanced in his questioning of stuff. But when it comes to writing and putting things down on paper there's a mismatch.

He's basically on the cusp of meeting expectations and working towards in writing. He seems to have a total disconnect between his ideas and being able to put them down on paper. He won't remember finger spaces or basic phonics knowledge. But if I ask him to think about every word, finger space, sentence he will do an ok job. When it comes to ordering it himself he cant or won't do it. He rushes and says he finds it boring and then when you read it it's like gobble di gook.

It's hard to know if it's just that he rushes and is more interested in getting whatever information down, or if there's some kind of preceding things going on.

He's book band 8 which is apparently where he needs to be.

Obviously quite worried and don't know how to help him.

I totally agree @Ceara and I don't mean to sound negative about any diagnosis. I suppose it's just trying to work out where the line is between personality quirks and diagnosable issues.

I can understand your concerns about labels, @ilkleymoorbartat. It's very difficult to diagnose a child at that age, so early in their development, so it is unlikely an assessment will result in a "label". However, it will highlight issues and help find solutions, different ways of working.

If he is already at the point where he is bored and dislikes writing so much that he is rushing to get work done, it is starting to have a negative effect on his education.

His story about Theo uses really good vocabulary and is very creative. Why don't you try getting him to make up a story in his head to tell you rather than writing it down?

Thanks @chesirecat99 I've Pm'd you

What I've noticed is that he knows his phonics sounds when flash cards are held up, but can't seem to put his phonics knowledge into practice when writing on his own.

So for example this is a comic he's writing on his own. It's meant to say here is a "death puddle," and then in the next one "or maybe it is". His bs and ds are constantly the wrong way round, and he never gets that the "e" sound is made form "ea".

And again, this is something he's done in a more guided and focused way (but all spellings are his). He's just been required to think about it a bit more deeply.

@randomthings

I am not sure why you are worried. He is where he is in reading, he's bright. He just doesn't enjoy writing. He is very young. I am not surprised he does not like sitting still to write. He may find it frustrating that he cannot write as quickly as he thinks.

He sounds like he is going brilliantly. Just give him more time to develop his writing skills. Many countries would not expect a child of his age to have advanced writing skills anyway.

There is far more to child development than early literacy and your bright child sounds like he is doing well in other areas.

This. He sounds fine to me.

If you want to support him get some cgp books for handwriting

It's just becuase the school flagged it up and said that he's on the cusp of working towards and not quite meeting expectations. They're obviously concerned and so now I am too!

The irony of spelling because wrong!

@ilkleymoorbartat

Sorry to ask again, I was just wondering if anyone had any advice on how I can break down phonics to help him when we're going through work?

So for example, how should he know cycle is spelt with a "c" rather than an "s" if that makes sense? I just want to give him the best help I can.

I used this

home.oxfordowl.co.uk/reading/learn-to-read-phonics/

The audio guide and a whiteboard and he had to listen carefully and write the sound or I wrote the letter and he had to say it.

Reading is the best way though. We read the books twice - once the decode and then once to explain the words eg the blacksmith is making metal in the forge. He has to explain what a blacksmith is, what is a forge - why is it hot? What’s a metal etc I teach around the sentence. My has exceptional reading but he doesn’t actually understand what it means necessarily or is able to retell the story

Hi. I would ask school if they have had the SENCO assess your son at all and if he is currently getting any extra 1:1 support. Some of what you mention could be indicative of dyslexia, inattentive ADD and poor short term working memory (knows phonics when taught them but doesn't apply to his written work).

The biggest red flag for me is a discrepancy between his ideas and recorded work. My Y3 Aug born boy is being assessed at the moment. You will need to push for assessment. Deep down the fact you’re questioning this so much shows there is something which needs investigating. Gut instinct counts.

We now have a dyslexia specialist tutor working with our son 1:1 every week outside of school and targeted interventions in school to help him make accelerated progress.

Thanks for replying @Chronicallymothering I fluctuate between thinking there's something up and that there isn't. I'm a worrier so I find it hard to be objective.

If he was dyslexic would he be able to write like the examples with little input?

With ADD he can focus on many activities and not just ones that he's interested. I wouldn't say he had hyper-focus that is often described with ADD. He can sit and do Lego, or help me do some work around the house or look at books quietly on his own in the morning etc.
But obviously everything is crossing my mind at the moment.

I'm not sure about Working memory issues or what that means.

This link might help, things like remembering finger spacing, or remembering to apply phonic knowledge to spelling is classic of this. www.defeat-dyslexia.com/2016/04/a-quick-guide-to-dyslexia-and-working-memory/

It’s worth speaking to School to find out if this do something they’re actively doing something about and assessing. For example, our school SENCO did a screen for dyslexic tendencies (not diagnostic) and was able to tell me he had processing, working memory and speed issues. He cannot hold a sentence over a certain length in his head to rewrite it, can only follow 3 part instructions maximum.

My son is very bright, not naughty / disruptive in class he just doesn’t remember what it is he’s being asked to do and needs lot of prompting to follow the tasks set. I think the marked diffference between your sons work with support (to remember finger spacing etc) and doing it alone shows there’s something I’d be exploring further.

Thanks @Chronicallymothering I will look at the link. The weird thing is if I ask him to spell stuff out he'll often get it right.

Nobody can tell from writing samples whether there is an SpLD. But I don't think these writing samples rule it out, either. FWIW my son was diagnosed dyslexic in year 2 and he could have written that.

The thing that rang alarm bells for me, with my DS, was the gulf between his ideas and verbal ability and what he could get down on paper - like your son.

Other things you've said that jump out at me:

"It's like everything he has in his head goes out of the window." My DS does this due to cognitive overload. Aspects of the writing process that other children his age can now do with automaticity, he still has to think about. There's too much going on at once. Like when you're learning to drive and have to consciously think through how to change gear and what your hands and feet and eyes need to be doing.

"If I ask him to talk out spelling the words in what he wants to write he does much better." Multi-sensory inputs may be something he finds helpful. Like most dyslexics, my son learns best with simultaneous multi-channel visual, oral and kinesthetic inputs.

"He says he rushes it and finds it confusing. But. When guided through it step by step he's generally fine." Could be our friend cognitive overload again, and sequencing issues, also typical with dyslexia.

Or could be nothing. But to find out how he learns best and if there are any weaknesses requiring specific support, you'd need to have a proper assessment. As he is bright, issues may never be picked up at school because he will be compensating sufficiently not to fall far enough behind.... also school screeners are benchmarked to age norms and very bright kids therefore kid screeners.

I would also take a step back and look at his reading and whether there might be anything more nuanced going on, beneath the surface of: book band 8, so bang on age related expectations for term 1 of year 2, so school not worried.

My year 3 DS is at "greater depth" for reading despite his dyslexia and has a school measured reading age of nearly 11, because he is a strong reader over short distances. He has a good visual memory, he's had intensive phonics coaching and he's a stealth ninja guesser from context, so he manages and he compensates well - for a few pages, before it all breaks down under the strain.

Things to look for that might ring alarm bells:
Tripping up most often on the "little words". Because long, apparently trickier words are easier to guess from context and shape.
Tripping up on unfamiliar or made up names, which have to be decoded and can't be guessed.
Good days and bad days.
Surprising lack of stamina. Tires quickly when reading, starts to make more mistakes, wants to stop.

More generally, ignoring age related expectations, is his reading where you would expect it to be, for him?

Thank you @Ceara all very helpful. His reading is generally ok. But he doesn't have loads of stamina. I don't know what's normal at that age. We read at the end of the day when he's tired which is often not helpful I guess. But he can normally read about 14 pages of a level 8 book in about 15 / 20 minutes. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

He doesn't trip over little words, but his decoding skills for unknown words are very hit and miss.

Totally normal. Be patient, don't put pressure on him, support him until it works itself out with time.

Your OP description was both of my sons throughout primary. One is now a lovely hardworking adult, got 3 Bs for A level. The other is top sets in secondary and should hopefully do ok even if he's still on the lazy side for written evidence of his abilities! Teachers need to show hard evidence that the children are progressing. Currently, you and the teacher have softer evidence that he is so that's good enough for now 😁 let him enjoy learning at his age rather than feel pressured to produce evidence.

Things to look for that might ring alarm bells:
Tripping up most often on the "little words". Because long, apparently trickier words are easier to guess from context and shape.
Tripping up on unfamiliar or made up names, which have to be decoded and can't be guessed.
Good days and bad days.
Surprising lack of stamina. Tires quickly when reading, starts to make more mistakes, wants to stop.

Don't want to hijack OP. Also posted further back. My boy is so so similar. I never get him to write at home so can't say how his writing compares but is not reaching expectations in writing. However reading and maths is good. I had him assessed by an ed psych in the summer. He is very young in the year. His verbal and quantitive reasoning is above average and working memory very high. Reading and maths achievement (as assessed by ed psych) is above average though as he is so young in the year, he presents as high average in class - also reading purple with almost 100% accuracy. But the paragraph quoted above describes his reading perfectly. And the phrase 'stealth ninja guesser' describes him perfectly too. However the ed psych tested his reading using an individual word list - so no comprehension or context cues. He came out on the 86th centile and a reading age of 7 years 4 months (6 years 1 month at the time). She said he had no trouble with words such as 'queue' but wasn't looking at word endings carefully.

He is just so confusing. I am convinced his dad is a bright undiagnosed dyslexic and I am 75% convinced that this is probably his issue too BUT he has great working memory - presently he is able to add 2 digit numbers in his head using bridging through 10. Finds number bonds and tables easy to learn and he's started learning his spellings by chanting eg said is S A I D - and this seems to be the best approach for him...so can you be dyslexic with good working memory?

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread but I have v similar child. You must get him assessed by an Ed Psych as he is likely to have a spiky profile/learning need. Look up dysgraphia. Could be other things though.
My year 3 boy is already starting to type in school, and it will become his normal way of writing when he is ready.

I just looked at the example you posted and actually my sons writing was FAR worse than this. Totally unreadable.