4+ tutor

[Oasis435]

Hi,

I am sitting my DC for the 4+ examinations of some of the north London independent schools in the next coming months.

I am looking for personal recommendations of a tutor to help DC.

I am not interested in having a discussion about the cons of tutoring… just looking for recommendations for one. We are based in north London.

Many thanks!

this will not go well

I’m not going to say you shouldn’t work with your DD in preparation for entrance exams but a good preschool that follows the EYFS framework plus a little bit of practice everyday during play of her numbers, shapes, phonics etc plus plenty of reading to her is more than enough.

3 year olds can only typically do focused learning activities for 10-15 minutes and learn best when it’s a game, song, or playful activity. Little and often with you plus lots of reading together of a wide variety of books and discussing them will be much more effective. Also, doing activities and having experiences that broaden her knowledge of the world like trips to museums, the zoo, the aquarium that spark their love of learning will also translate better to the school. You can do so much early years math and science just baking together. My daughter declared her favourite part of baking is the math - adding, measuring, using different units, understanding temperature etc

Hiring tutors for preschoolers is just a waste of money. Academically selective schools really don’t require specific knowledge. My DD got accepted into a school with more than 10 applicants for each place for the 4+. Some could read at year 2 level at the start of reception but others couldn’t read at all! And I know children who could read who didn’t get in even though their preschool report made it clear that they could do basic math and read as I am friends with their parents and know it’s true.

They are testing applied practical reasoning (verbal and non-verbal) and how quickly they grasp a new idea. 4 isn’t an accurate age to assess long term academic potential but really believe me that a tutor won’t help.

@LondonGirl83

I’m not going to say you shouldn’t work with your DD in preparation for entrance exams but a good preschool that follows the EYFS framework plus a little bit of practice everyday during play of her numbers, shapes, phonics etc plus plenty of reading to her is more than enough.

3 year olds can only typically do focused learning activities for 10-15 minutes and learn best when it’s a game, song, or playful activity. Little and often with you plus lots of reading together of a wide variety of books and discussing them will be much more effective. Also, doing activities and having experiences that broaden her knowledge of the world like trips to museums, the zoo, the aquarium that spark their love of learning will also translate better to the school. You can do so much early years math and science just baking together. My daughter declared her favourite part of baking is the math - adding, measuring, using different units, understanding temperature etc

Hiring tutors for preschoolers is just a waste of money. Academically selective schools really don’t require specific knowledge. My DD got accepted into a school with more than 10 applicants for each place for the 4+. Some could read at year 2 level at the start of reception but others couldn’t read at all! And I know children who could read who didn’t get in even though their preschool report made it clear that they could do basic math and read as I am friends with their parents and know it’s true.

They are testing applied practical reasoning (verbal and non-verbal) and how quickly they grasp a new idea. 4 isn’t an accurate age to assess long term academic potential but really believe me that a tutor won’t help.

That's what the schools say. And then you find that the places go to two groups of kids

1. those who attend preschools like Clowns where they spend a year preparing for the assessment
2. those who are tutored

@pianolessons1 I’m not saying what the schools say. I’m telling my real life experience of the process including the types of questions my child was asked and the level her classmates were at compared to friends of hers who didn’t get in.

Why don’t you help the OP with your real life experience and give her the name of the tutor you used to successfully get into the highly selective school your DC attend?

Because she no longer works as a tutor otherwise I would.

Okay well there is no need to essentially follow men around mumsnet. Talk about your experience and I’ll talk about mine.

@LondonGirl83

Okay well there is no need to essentially follow men around mumsnet. Talk about your experience and I’ll talk about mine.

Follow men around mumsnet?

DD attends a highly selective private school and we did the same as @LondonGirl83. We started all these things from a very early age though - encouraging conversation from 2, when reading stories we look at the pictures, describe them, guess what may happen next, taking them to lots of places and talking lots about our experiences, allowing them to use scissors from a young age (DD is 4 and can cut very intricate shapes with ease - this was in her assessment too), grouping things together when out and about etc

Her nursery was one that sends a good proportion of children to prep schools but not necessarily highly selective ones - she was the only one who went to a highly selective school this year. However, nursery is familiar with the assessments and the reports required etc.

Sorry I can't help with tutor names but thought I would add my experience

@pianolessons1 follow me* but I suspect you knew that…

[quote LondonGirl83]**@pianolessons1* follow me but I suspect you knew that…[/quote]
ah I see. no I didn't - but if you have a high enough opinion of yourself to think that I would search you up on the site, feel free to continue to think that. If we've been on the different threads on the same subject then I hadn't noticed.

There are many reasons I am glad I don’t live in London and this is one of them

@usernamehell that’s my point. It’s a consistent parenting style everyday for years. A tutor for an hour a week for a few months can’t really do much or provide the broad rich experience which is why it’s a waste of money IMO. A good preschool plus parental time is really all that’s needed to support your child’s optimal development.

Also, the kids aren’t judged on factual knowledge alone. At my DDs school as long as you were up to scratch and ready for school, it’s clear the questions testing reasoning weigh much heavier in the selection. I was shocked by some of the kids that didn’t get in compared to those who did and it really opened my eyes.

@pianolessons1 okay, then let’s stop…

The information I managed to obtain from my 3 year old (and her peers) at the time of the assessments were that the activities included: cutting, colouring, drawing herself, puzzles, jumping, hopping, putting blocks in a sequence/continuing a sequence, grouping items.

Second stage was lots of talking about her, her family, her house, things she does and then she was given pictures to look at and talk about - things here included describing what she could see, what she thought people were doing, if she was in the picture what would she like to be doing.

From what she's described to me, there was no specific factual knowledge other than where she led the conversation eg. what is in your bedroom. A: toys, Q: what is your favourite toy? How do you play with it?

These are all things that are easily covered at home by talking lots with children imo. My personal perspective for my child is also that if she is going to go to a highly academic super selective school, she absolutely had to get in on her own merit. I did not want her coached to get in and then struggle once she is there as these schools are ruthless when it comes to asking children to leave if they don't meet standards. The parental input we provided is not about to disappear now she is in school so my logic is that she should not have a problem staying there (fingers crossed!)

My daughter was asked about numbers, shapes and some other fact / academic skill based things to be honest. Also reasoning tasks though I’m reluctant to share the details for fear people will start drilling their kids on it. As there are children who got in though that can’t read, write or do math I think the reasoning and general enthusiasm for learning is what matters most as long as you have mastered your basic preschool skills so are ready and not behind.

Please give your child a carefree childhood not an elite education.

@LondonGirl83 I'm not sure if you have but I have not revealed DD's school or the other one we applied to (and have no intention to). Even if you or I were to give the specifics of their assessment, I know that both of the schools we applied for amend the specifics for every group they assess as well as each year. They also made changes for COVID last year to ensure that all children did not mix

I wholeheartedly agree that not every child who got in with her could read, write or do maths (some of them were barely 3.5years old at the assessment)

"We started all these things from a very early age though - encouraging conversation from 2, when reading stories we look at the pictures, describe them, guess what may happen next, taking them to lots of places and talking lots about our experiences, allowing them to use scissors from a young age (DD is 4 and can cut very intricate shapes with ease - this was in her assessment too), grouping things together when out and about etc"

I'm sorry but absolutely creasing at the very solemnly-stated idea that introducing your child to scissors at a very young age is somehow setting them on a path to a superior life.

I don't know: I feel so totally remote from these posts. What earthly reason do you have for wanting to push your kids from such an early age? What possible good can come of it? When you reach the end of your life will you be patting yourself on your very old and wrinkled back and saying to yourself: "At least she was able to handle scissors from the age of three. I did that for her."

And, as for the rest of the comment above, you do realise that MOST people do all that with their kids, and just for the pleasure of it, not because by the age of 3 we want to be hothousing them and ensuring they gain their rightful place at the top table of life. "Encouraging conversation, looking at the pictures in the book." Whereas the rest of us, clearly, stick Bluey on and let 'em get on with it. Jeez.

@usernamehell

DD attends a highly selective private school and we did the same as *@LondonGirl83*. We started all these things from a very early age though - encouraging conversation from 2, when reading stories we look at the pictures, describe them, guess what may happen next, taking them to lots of places and talking lots about our experiences, allowing them to use scissors from a young age (DD is 4 and can cut very intricate shapes with ease - this was in her assessment too), grouping things together when out and about etc

Her nursery was one that sends a good proportion of children to prep schools but not necessarily highly selective ones - she was the only one who went to a highly selective school this year. However, nursery is familiar with the assessments and the reports required etc.

Sorry I can't help with tutor names but thought I would add my experience

I don't think there is anything here that normal parents don't do every day.

You are just describing a totally normal childhood.

@Placido

Please give your child a carefree childhood not an elite education.

I don't understand what people are thinking off on these threads when they want this "elite" education.

Most of your child's learning and developing will be done at home with parents.

The academic ( school) aspects will be the same whether in an "elite" private school or a state school . The science isn't different, the maths isn't different, the teaching isn't different, the teachers are not different. Few teachers are independent for their entire career, it isn't a different breed of teacher or anything

Behaviour in a school is a big factor in how many children there reach their potential, and I have seen shockingly awful behaviour in both state and independent. ( and also lovey, good behaviour in both too)

And, as for the rest of the comment above, you do realise that MOST people do all that with their kids, and just for the pleasure of it, not because by the age of 3 we want to be hothousing them and ensuring they gain their rightful place at the top table of life. "Encouraging conversation, looking at the pictures in the book." Whereas the rest of us, clearly, stick Bluey on and let 'em get on with it. Jeez.

exactly

Unfortunately lots and lots of people DON'T do that. If they did , teacher's jobs would be a lot easier.

Tests for pre school kids are such an awful thing that I am just appalled.

@Antiqueanniesmagiclanternshow

Unfortunately lots and lots of people DON'T do that. If they did , teacher's jobs would be a lot easier.

Tests for pre school kids are such an awful thing that I am just appalled.

sure, there are parents who neglect their children.

The vast majority of normal, loving parents do all those things for their children cheerfully and tirelessly, because that is what parenting is.- very strange to do it in preparation for some sort of entrance exam - that strikes me as very odd indeed. If it isn't happening just because it is natural, you can't help wondering a) why it isn't happening naturally and b) if it feels forced and unnatural to the child

I think lots of people parent this way naturally. However, for a host of reasons it’s far from universal. Only half of parents even read daily to their children. It’s not a criticism as I think all parents do the best they can.

@Miriam101

"We started all these things from a very early age though - encouraging conversation from 2, when reading stories we look at the pictures, describe them, guess what may happen next, taking them to lots of places and talking lots about our experiences, allowing them to use scissors from a young age (DD is 4 and can cut very intricate shapes with ease - this was in her assessment too), grouping things together when out and about etc"

I'm sorry but absolutely creasing at the very solemnly-stated idea that introducing your child to scissors at a very young age is somehow setting them on a path to a superior life.

I don't know: I feel so totally remote from these posts. What earthly reason do you have for wanting to push your kids from such an early age? What possible good can come of it? When you reach the end of your life will you be patting yourself on your very old and wrinkled back and saying to yourself: "At least she was able to handle scissors from the age of three. I did that for her."

And, as for the rest of the comment above, you do realise that MOST people do all that with their kids, and just for the pleasure of it, not because by the age of 3 we want to be hothousing them and ensuring they gain their rightful place at the top table of life. "Encouraging conversation, looking at the pictures in the book." Whereas the rest of us, clearly, stick Bluey on and let 'em get on with it. Jeez.

Everything I do with my child is for pleasure; I was merely giving examples how everyday parenting was adequate preparation for 4+ assessments with no tutor needed for my child and scissors were an example of the type of activity that features in 4+ assessments. I could give many more.

I have not once stated I am superior or a better parent, I have not been nasty, criticised or ridiculed anyone and nor have I implied my child is on any path to a 'superior life'. I am simply doing what I feel is best for MY child and am confident and happy with my choice - I do not need to justify it to anyone