Y4 Appeal advice

mizzzydink · 2021-09-24T08:12:47+00:00

Hi Has anyone been successful in winning a school appeal for Y4? We moved from Canada and my daughter has a place in reception, but my son was denied a space due to prejudice. (classes full). I am wondering if anyone has appealed successfully in a similar circumstance? I would love to see the evidence that you provided, or any advice. Thanks in advance. (Ps. schools are a couple of miles apart, and no car)

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Moominmammacat · 24/09/2021 09:25

That's not prejudice ... that's a full class!

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 24/09/2021 09:33

The refusal to admit an extra child will say it would be prejudicial to the other children @Moominmammacat.
OP, I did win a Y3 appeal but the grounds involved a safeguarding failure so hopefully not applicable to your case.

Moominmammacat · 24/09/2021 09:40

Well, I hope you get a place to your satisfaction but big classes can have awful knock-on effects.

RedskyThisNight · 24/09/2021 10:03

At Year 4, there is no legal limit to class size, so it's possible to win an appeal if you can show that the benefit to your child of attending that school outweighs the detriment to the school in accepting an extra child.

You therefore need to think about reasons why your child should go to that school. Transport issues won't generally be considered. You need to focus on things the school provides that the other one doesn't. Does one have lots of sports team and your child is sporty? Or offer a language that is particularly important for your family? It's not really helpful to see what others have done as the appeal needs to be specific to your school and your child.

Hoppinggreen · 24/09/2021 10:11

What are your grounds for appeal?
There are some very knowledgeable people on here (not me) who may come along and advise you hopefully but as far as I know logistics isn’t grounds for appeal and I am not sure where you think prejudice comes into it

Original poster

mizzzydink · 24/09/2021 10:26

Thanks for the replies....Just to confirm as PASTMYBESTBEFOREDATE alluded to....Prejudice is the prejudice to the other children.
My grounds for appeal is that it would actually predjudice my DS more than the other kids.
We had primarily writted grounds based upon the distance so that is helpful to know RedSkyisNight.
The problem is, my husband does not have a car, and it is 2 buses and a 30 minute walk to get my DS to school after dropping DD off in the morning. My son is going to be late by 30 minutes and picked up early 30 minutes most days (one day we have help). Afterschool clubs are full in my DD school. My daughter has arthritis and so cannot so the journey to get my DS as it entails too much walking.
I still actually live in Canada and will only be here a few weeks per year so cannot help,
I'm feeling a little dispondent that those grounds might not be enough, because at this rate my husband will never be able to get work and then I'll never be able to quit my job and move back :(
I wonder if I could use the French at the preferred school since DS is Canadian and it is a bilingual country

OP posts:

Hoppinggreen · 24/09/2021 10:52

If your preferred school does French but the other one doesn’t then that might be your best shot.
I sympathise with the travel issues but I doubt they are grounds for appeal unfortunately

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 24/09/2021 11:07

How long does the journey take in total and how far is it? Is that the closest school with a space? Are there any other schools further away that would be easier to get to (direct route)?
His French might be worth a go if the preferred school has a significantly better offer. Although distance and logistics shouldn't be relied on, it might be considered because of your daughter's arthritis.

Original poster

mizzzydink · 24/09/2021 11:47

Thanks
Journey is 2.3 miles total or 51 minutes walking.
or 48 minutes total and 44 of that is walking he would be 30 minutes late
or 45 minutes total with only 34 minutes walking, but he would be 50 minutes late.
If he were to walk direct from home it would be 36 minutes.

There is one more school that is a 20 minute walk from home (32 from sisters school), that when he is more familiar with roads here he could do on his own (although it does cross an A road, and he is only just 8), but that is also full and denied us a place, and we did not appeal that decision.

OP posts:

lanthanum · 24/09/2021 11:54

Does the school offered to your son have a space in reception as well? If so, moving your daughter might be an alternative solution.

(Consider getting a scooter for your daughter, by the way. When mine was tired, she'd just stand on the scooter, holding the handlebar with one hand and my hand with the other.)

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 24/09/2021 12:26

A 3 mile walk to school is considered acceptable for an 8 year old so that's not something you could use. It's 2 miles for under 8s.
Is there a child minder who could take your daughter to school and collect her?

EduCated · 24/09/2021 12:33

Definitely read some of the threads on here about appeals - there are some very knowledgable posters.

The French is the strongest reason you’ve listed. Unfortunately transport and childcare issues aren’t going to hold any sway with the panel.

RedskyThisNight · 24/09/2021 12:42

The expectation would be that the OP employs a childminder (or similar) to look after one child while she takes the other to school. Or she makes some sort of informal arrangement with another parent at one of the schools to take/collect the child at that school. I had a similar arrangement with 2 neighbours for years.

If he was Year 5, I would probably be suggesting that cycling to the school would be perfectly doable, but he's probably a bit young for that.

Original poster

mizzzydink · 24/09/2021 13:04

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

A 3 mile walk to school is considered acceptable for an 8 year old so that's not something you could use. It's 2 miles for under 8s. Is there a child minder who could take your daughter to school and collect her?

Do you have a link to the info regarding this, I am interested in reading these standards- The walk crosses an A road, and is down and back up a steep hill (Sheffield). This is also why biking would not be a very viable option..... literally he wouldn't get up the hill!/....I wouldn't get up the hill and I mountain bike!

Also, would he be expected to do this walk alone or would my husband be expected to walk with him? I just don't know how people are supposed to find work if they spend over an hour on the kids commute, but perhaps I was just lucky to have him 5 minutes from his last school
No we do not know of any childminder as we are new to the area, but I can certainly look, I just looked at the before and after school clubs so far.

Does anyone know if there is a chance to have these conversations at the appeal or is it just them reading the evidence and making a decision?

Thanks again for all the advice. I appreciate that I am seeing it through my perspective, and it is helpful to hear ideas that might make the current situation more tenable.

OP posts:

EduCated · 24/09/2021 13:29

At the appeal you have the chance to put your points across, and the panel may ask questions. But travel issues really aren’t going to cut it, so you really won’t want to focus on them.

LIZS · 24/09/2021 13:35

Does he speak French already? Any relevant activities? Logistics of getting there are not likely to be grounds for appeal, although it could be mentioned in passing. Childminder or before school club for either child is probably your best bet. Is he on the waiting list, if so in what position?

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 24/09/2021 13:50

I can only find it on the gov.uk site in relation to free transport but childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/transport/ is useful.
It may be on your Council's website too.

Original poster

mizzzydink · 24/09/2021 13:55

@RedskyThisNight

At Year 4, there is no legal limit to class size, so it's possible to win an appeal if you can show that the benefit to your child of attending that school outweighs the detriment to the school in accepting an extra child.

You therefore need to think about reasons why your child should go to that school. Transport issues won't generally be considered. You need to focus on things the school provides that the other one doesn't. Does one have lots of sports team and your child is sporty? Or offer a language that is particularly important for your family? It's not really helpful to see what others have done as the appeal needs to be specific to your school and your child.

Do you think the social benefits will be considered or only educational? I was going to mention the importance of being with his sister after emigrating for the mutual support????? Or is this limited to what the school provides such as classes?

OP posts:

LIZS · 24/09/2021 14:18

It is very unlikely a yr4 would see a year r during the school day. Early
Years tends to have separate play area. Can you afford a taxi or uber for your oh and ds to travel?

Original poster

mizzzydink · 24/09/2021 15:41

I suppose we can afford a taxi....It would be 3k a year, so we couldn't afford it easily, but we could afford it, and then I would have the costs of any childminder I find on top of that/ Yikes. I guess we might just have to suck it up. I am lucky I do not live in poverty. It must be so hard for some people/

OP posts:

prh47bridge · 24/09/2021 18:27

As others have said, transport issues won't win an appeal. If the journey was over 3 miles by the shortest safe walking route your son would be entitled to free transport, but that would be just for him, not for you. A commute of up to 45 minutes each way is considered reasonable for a child of this age.

If the allocated school doesn't offer French, you could use this in your appeal. However, check carefully. The school should be teaching a foreign language in Y3-Y6 and French is a common choice.

As has been advised by others, you need to look for anything the preferred school provides that is missing from the allocated school and that you can show is relevant to your son. Those are the things you should build your case around.

You can certainly try talking about the importance of him being with his sister but most appeal panels won't give that much weight unless there is professional evidence showing that your children have a particular need to be together. However, some may be persuaded by the fact that you are moving here from Canada even if there is no expert evidence.

Bobholll · 24/09/2021 18:35

Honestly, it’s ridiculous kids can’t go to the same school as their siblings. What the hell are parents meant to do?! You move from another country & bam, sorry. You need to split your kids up 🤦🏼‍♀️

Walking distance is fine but when it’s one parent, how do you walk two of them or even drive two of them to schools that both start at 9am?! You can’t leave your primary aged kid & dash off to the second school. So one child will always be late. I have no idea why this is not a reasonable argument. I really don’t.

Sorry OP. I hope you can get them into a school together.

prh47bridge · 24/09/2021 18:44

@Bobholll

Honestly, it’s ridiculous kids can’t go to the same school as their siblings. What the hell are parents meant to do?! You move from another country & bam, sorry. You need to split your kids up 🤦🏼‍♀️

Walking distance is fine but when it’s one parent, how do you walk two of them or even drive two of them to schools that both start at 9am?! You can’t leave your primary aged kid & dash off to the second school. So one child will always be late. I have no idea why this is not a reasonable argument. I really don’t.

Sorry OP. I hope you can get them into a school together.

Schools don't have an infinite amount of space. Parents object if classes get too big. So, unfortunately, this is the risk you take if you move. Most schools give sibling priority so, in most cases, siblings will end up at the same school. Indeed, it may be that the OP's son is at or near the head of the waiting list due to having a younger sister at the school (if the school operates a waiting list for Y4) and therefore could get a place if someone leaves even if her appeal is unsuccessful.